Team Combat

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Ed Kettler
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Team Combat

Post by Ed Kettler »

I've had this thought off and on for the last two years, but it was reinforced on Saturday when I watched Dane and Mark's FW-190s dueling with Mike and Bob's Mustangs: how cool would it be to have team combat, maybe with different colored streamers, and you got positive points (+100) for cutting the bad guy and -50 for cutting your team mates? Once all the bad guys were shot down, your own side would be fair game.

Stray neuron firing #2: build a bomber (or use .40 trainer), and have one side be the escorts and the other the interceptors. the bomber would tow multiple streamers (3?) and all would have to be removed for it to be shot down, and it would have to make 4-6 complete passes to complete its "mission". If a fighter got its ribbon completely removed, it is killed, and has to pull out of the fight. Bomber basically has to fly the circuit, no radical maneuvers. If the bomber completes its mission, the bomber side wins.

Anybody done this? Was it fun? Need to think through how to make this NPS eligible if possible.

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Dane McGee
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Post by Dane McGee »

Ed, you have a very good point about team combat. I can see the potential for some sort of team effort especially with he pursuit type flying that is required in 2548. Different colored streamers would be cool.
Without realizing it Mark and I were each chasing the mustangs around and working together.
I stuck to trying to chase one P-51 for almost the entire round and Mark was busy with the other.
I found myself setting up passes on the opponent long before the actual maneuver. You really have to work to get your plane in position at the right time.
BTW, The Team Luftwaffe FW 190A did score a kill for the motherland[:D]

Hmmmm......bomber escort and interceptor[8D] Question, would the escorts have streamers attatched or only the bomber and interceptors?
Don't really matter I guess.....sounds fun.

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lightning
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Post by lightning »

[:0][:0]OMG, this is scary! Attached is a post I placed on RC Canada back in March when a few of us were trying to figure out where the new Canadian scale rules were going to take us!!
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The whole idea is to have an "allied" bomber (that Lancaster sounds better all the time) towing multiple streamers while two to four "allied" fighters (no streamer) "protect" it from the two to four "enemy" fighters that also have streamers. The "allied" fighters go after the "enemy" while the "enemy" is trying to cut the bombers streamer. The bomber would have one streamer per engine. Four streamers would make it a tough target to clean off and probably guarantee the heat ran the full five minutes. Two of these were to be attached to the wing-tips, the others further inboard. A Lanc could have them off each vertical stab.
If the bomber loses all its streamers, the heat is over. An "enemy" fighter that loses all of its streamer (judges call) is out of the battle and must land. "Allied" fighters score points by cutting "enemy" streamers and the remaining bomber streamer points are added to the team score. Not sure yet as to whether "enemy" fighters get points for cutting streamers captured by the "allies".
Roles are reversed for the next heat.
The whole idea is to nuke the silly current philosophy of all planes going after all streamers, ie "friendly fire".
And multi engines ARE allowed with a maximum combined capacity of.50, so a couple of 25 FXs off my illegal A17s could be transferred to a Wellington. Don't have four .12s for a Lanc though.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
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Ed Kettler
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Post by Ed Kettler »

Lightning and Max,

I thought the escorts would need streamers to make them vulnerable too, but given they have to defend a slower moving/passive target then they may need an advantage.

I considered the number of streamers, and thought a medium bomber could have 2 and a heavy bomber 3, but I can go with the "number of engines = number of streamers" approach. I don't think the bomber model has to have the right number of engines, two .15s on a Lanc/B-17/B-24 would be OK, or just stick a .25 in the nose. It isn't going to be judged for scale, it just has to look OK in the air. Getting 4 1/2As to start consistently would be a modern miracle![:D].

Maybe we can do a bomb drop and give the bomber pilot points for distance from the target? I'm just sitting here thinking of fun things to do with this ... [:D]

Ed

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Post by Rabbit Leader »

Ed, I was thinking along the same lines, except...

Have 2 teams with different colored streamers..you can have 2-4 planes in each team. When start combat is called, the two teams go at it. When any plane loses it's streamer, it's "shot down" and has to land, even if the "knot" is still there. The combat will go on for the full 5 minutes, or till there is only one team still flying, whichever occurs first. I would say that regular scoring rules count for each individual pilot, plus each team would be flying for "team" (or squadron, flight, <i>rotte</i>) points. In fact, if you are the pilot that administers the <i>coup d' grace</i> to another plane, you might, just might call that a "kill", and then we just might keep track of "aces" and not points...could be interesting, might see some one-on-three fights, etc..

The bomber thing is cool, it would be so bleeding easy to build a 4-5 pound profile "bomber"..it wouldn't climb well, might be a sittingg duck..also, if you were just unlucky enough to pull in too close and feed your streamer to the bomber, then you could say that one of the waist gunners got ya. EVEN BETTER!! Put some sort of a bomb drop on the bomber, and make it actually try to hit a target!!

This could be way more fun than standard combat, might make a heck of a local event..

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Post by Devil Dog »

Team combat is awesome! I was doing it 3 years ago, which was how I got started. I was going to try and get it going in the Cincinnati area again. I was going to start flying new rules here anyways with the only change being the streamer represents airplane status. Once it is cut more than half way, you have to land. You can relaunch but you have to use a full streamer or you could deploy in the air. I’m also going to switch to forestry tape. When I flew team combat, no midairs happened!



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Post by Ed Kettler »

Copied from the Debrief area:
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<font face="Courier New">PRIORITY:FLASH
FROM: CMDR, 72ND BOMB GROUP (HEAVY)
TO: CMDR, 8TH USAAF
DTG: 1500Z 30OCT44
SUBJECT: BOMB DAMAGE ASSESSMENT, HARGETTBURG STEEL WORKS
SECURITY: SECRET</font id="Courier New">

<font face="Courier New">1. Elements of the 72nd Bomb Group (Heavy) conducted a 36 plane raid on the steel works located at Hargettburg, Germany this day. Crew briefing occured at 1215 local, with takeoff at 1225. Intelligence briefed to expect flak and fighter opposition within the target area. The bomb group was led by LTC Alan Buckner on his first mission as bomb group commander.

2. Fighter escort was provided by the 34th Fighter Group flying P-51Ds from Boxted. Fighter lead was COL JP Morere with 2LT Daniel Glowicz as his wingman, on his first combat mission.

3. Enemy opposition primarily consisted of fighter opposition, with both Me-109s and FW-190s being encountered. Intelligence analysis of radio traffic indicates that the Me-109 leader was Oberst Cash Hargett, while the FW-190s were led by Hauptmann Martin Gallant. Both are very experienced combat pilots, and strong opposition was encountered while in the target zone.

4. Fighter escort was effective and efficient, with none of the bombers being seriously damaged from the Initial Point through the bomb release. All bombs landed within the factory compound, with initial bomb damage assessment estimating a 30% reduction in capacity. Colonel Buckner's plane was damaged by Me-109s, but managed to return safely to base on two engines.

5. LT Glowicz's plane sufferend engine damage and he was forced to bail out over France. The French Resistance reports that he is in their care, and he will be returned through the network.

6. The planes were met by throngs of enthusiastic citizens when the bombers returned to base in Northampton.

BT</font id="Courier New">

------------------------

We had a great time with some team combat at the Richardson RC Club fun fly today, under some brillant skies and pleasant temperatures. The Honda CRV was filled with transmitters and planes as I set off to entice some unsuspecting RCers into the the ranks of the combat fliers with some low stress combat. Cash brought out his P-51 and Me-109, along with his new Yak, which is very nice, and flies great! I enlisted Roy Appleton for support and coaching, and Alan Buckner, who usually is our line marshall/time keeper as the B-24 pilot.

After watching JP ace the egg drop with a 2 foot circular error probable (CEP), we were next after the open flying. Marty Gallant used to fly Open B with us, so it did not take a lot of arm twisting to get him to fly my FW-190, and he recommended Daniel (13-14?) as an up and coming pilot who wanted to try combat, so we had the flight crews. I got streamers on all the birds, then it was time to fuel and fly. The B-24 and FW have 6 ounce tanks, so we got them off first, followed by the rest of planes. Once everybody was up, it was "Fight's On!!!" and Alan was assailed by the Luftwaffe, yet JP and Daniel were able to protect the bomber through two bomb runs.

I played narrator, throwing in some historical commentary to introduce the planes, plus running commentary as the fight went on. Daniel flew well, but misjudged a split S late in the heat, putting <i>Miss Marilyn</i> into the ground. I told him not to worry, and he was very happy when we picked it up, and even the prop was intact. I paraded the plane by the club members, and they were very impressed by the flight characteristics and durability of the planes.

We got lots of great comments, and the members thought the combat was the highlight of the day. When I left, JP had claimed his second event, and was in strong contention to sweep the event with three wins. Scott Stockwell was there with his electric Me-110, which continues to improve with each iteration, and Cash test hopped my repaired Me-110 after Roy and I trouble shot the balky left engine.

Overall, a great day to fly and recruit combat pilots for next year. I will be presenting the building techniques class at the club on Thursday, so that may help as well. The club loved it, and we had a blast too!

Thanks Roy, Cash, Scott and JP for coming out and supporting combat!

Ed


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Post by Ed Kettler »

Scott Stockwell sent me some feedback from the Attack on Hargettburg. One of the club members noted that it got a little hard for the spectators to tell the Luftwaffe from the Air Corps, and suggested that we use different colored streamers. Great idea! What I'd like to hear are suggestions for four (4) colors, not just two. I can see where instead of two sides, we might have four pairs of fighters up where each lead and wingman were opposed by the other three teams. Be sure that they will be easily discernable in bright and dull conditions.

Thanks!
Ed

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Post by Ed Kettler »

Here are some pictures taken by the Signal Corps during the mission to Hargettsburg:

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Ed Kettler's Me-110 with <i>Miss Marilyn </i>and <i>Gunfighter</i>, the FW-190D and the B-24

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The mighty B-24 plows through the crystal blue skies deep over Germany, en route to the steel works at Hargettsburg

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Lt Daniel Glowicz in <i>Miss Marilyn </i>peels off to attack a Luftwaffe fighter

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High to the right, Colonel JP Morere in <i>Gunfighter</i> converts altitude to airspeed as he seeks to close on Oberst Cash Hargett's Me-109 before it can attack LTC Buckner's B-24. Hauptmann Martin Gallant's FW-190 is missing its streamer, while LT Glowicz seeks to get into position.

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34th FG Mustangs drive off Oberst Hargett's Me-109 after it damaged the B-24. LTC Buckner and crew completed their mission and returned home in the damaged bomber.

<hr noshade size="1">
This event was a lot of fun, and I'm already scheming on how to make it better, probably by burning a CD with sound effects, some Glenn Miller and other music to improve the crowd's perception of the event. The photos are courtesy of Norm Glowicz, Daniel's proud father.

Try it, you'll like it!

Ed


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Post by Ed Kettler »

Some of my thoughts on team combat and bombers:

1. It seems to be really difficult to cut both streamers on the B-24. Lee managed to trim both streamers down to ~3' on Saturday while flying unopposed, Cash got one at Richardson, and someone got one at North Dallas, but no bomber has been 'shot down' yet. 1 streamer per engine may be overkill, but we need to continue on this track for now.

2. Wingspans in line with 2548: single engine fighters 48", twins 60", medium bombers 72" and heavy bombers 96".

3. The balloon strafing idea would fit in well with the fighter bombers, ground attack, medium bomber crowd. I think the heavy bombers should stick to bombing type maneuvers.

4. Bomb capacity: the heavy bombers should be able to carry 4 bombs easily, the medium bombers 2, and everybody else 1.

5. NPS doesn't seem to fit well due to all of the above planes in the mix. Keeping score would be a royal pain, and would seriously interfere with some serious fun.[:D]

I rehabbed an OS .40FP over the last week, and it should be ready for test runs. I'm working with Scott Stockwell on another B-24 with 96" wings, and I've plan to use the .40 unless Scott convinces me to go to twin electrics. The B-24's light wingloading requires me to throttle back to about 60-70% after takeoff to keep from running away from the fighters, even though I'm using an APC 10x3 on a Norvel BB .25. The .40 may be overkill, but it's paid for!

Happy Holidays!
Ed
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