Limited-B Demo only (Please)

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Jimbo
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Limited-B Demo only (Please)

Post by Jimbo »

Just wanted to start a thread for Limited-B Demo only. The other threads were going everywhere. Thanks.

Limited-B
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Post by BigCountry »

<b>This post is copied from the Rules thread</b>

Next let me say that I thought today was going to be another typical day at the LARKS for Jimbo and I. He and I flying some one on one combat for a few hours this afternoon. Well I was very surprised when I got to the field this afternoon to find Jimbo as expected as well as Grun (Charles Warren) and a fellow club member Tony Duprie (probably the RCCA's newest member) all geared up and ready to fly some Limited B. Well sometimes it's just nice to be lucky. So anyway we proceeded to get ready to conduct a 2nd demo for the Limited B concept in the last couple of days. In our case rather than six there were four but we had a good variance of plane designs and motors to evaluate. Here's a pic of the group:
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As normal Jimbo had one of his 48" Raptors that he had equipped with a Irvine 25. This was a new motor as of today so he was only taching in the low 14's but due to the Raptor being a clean design it still flew well. Then there's yours truly flying one of my 64" WASP's equipped with a OS 25fx. I was taching the highest of anyone at 15,200 which is with a motor that was equipped with the larger .32sx carb. Next in line is Grun flying a wide winged Raptor that he had gotten from Jimbo sometime ago and finally gotten together. Grun was running an OS 25fx as well but with the OE carb and was taching in the upper 14's. The last person in the mix is Tony Duprie who as I mentioned just within the last couple days joined the RCCA has been flying combat off and on with Jimbo and I for probably about a year and a half. He's been doing the 3D thing here lately and has had his fill of that and is ready to do some combat hardcore. Tony was flying a Flatbat SPAD with an OS 28f series heli engine all OE. Tony was taching in the low to mid 14's but his plane flew really well considering the lack of squares and probably the least power of the bunch respectively.

We were able to fly 3 rounds before mother nature said that's enough and rained us out. Here is my perspective as well as a few comments from Tony being the newest and least exposed to the concept. The planes from front to back all flew well. There may have been subtle differences in speed but they weren't that apparent in the air. There was little to no furballing. At times we would come together as a group but the planes will simply not allow that turn on a dime with nine cents change type of performance here's a pic of one of the rounds:
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We had no midairs so I can't report as to the relative difference in carnage. Everyone had a really good time and seemed very comfortable with their planes performance. Tony was extremely happy with what we did today. He is someone that looks to pursue more than just one class and just purchased a Lanier kit to begin flying. He liked the idea of the crossover between a Limited and Open class. The day ended unlike most of mine do with me on top after three rounds wi[:D]th 5 cuts, next was Jimbo with 3, Tony with 2 and Charles with 1. All in all a great afternoon of combat...[:D]

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Post by Feathers »

<b>This Post is copied per request from the Limited B rules thread.</b>

We managed to get some planes in the air Friday afternoon before the Riot Over Rapids meet on Saturday. Doug Stahlke picked up a bunch of 10x3 APC props from Minneapolis and I had a bunch of 10x4 MA's as well as a few 10x3 APC's. We had six RCCA pilots, six planes, a table full of props, and bin full of streamers- there was no doubt we were going to be late for supper! The following pilots participated:

Tim Feathers, RCCA 538
Ryan Feathers, RCCA 737
Darrin Lawler, RCCA 561
Doug Goldman, RCCA 458
Doug Stahlke, RCCA 444
Leon Olszewski, RCCA 763

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We started out by test flying both props with different planes and engines. Everybody agreed that the 10x3 APC was the better prop- the engines sounded better, the planes were a little faster, and the climb was better too. However, most everyone also said the 10x4 MA was a very flyable prop and that either one would make for some fun combat. Some heats we flew 10x4 MA's against 10x3 APC's and the 10x3 had a clear advantage in speed and I felt in turning (granted there are other variables here as all our planes are different but we can only control the variables we can control..). When I had a 10x3 APC and the last streamer one round I could clearly pull away from the field even towing the streamer. Again, for whatever reason the oldest engine I have was turning the APC 15,300 on PowerMaster 15%. Other engines were well under and I made a nice list of rpm readings from the different engines and set it in the trailer. After all the rain and combat, then more rain and then more combat....well, I can't locate it right now. The engine turning 15,300 was the only one approaching the 15,500 limit however.
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The planes were clearly slower than most present Open B planes- much slower. We had a few bumps that resulted in no damage to either plane. I had one wing tip prop chewed, one plane with a freak battery disconnect that went in full throttle with nothing more than a Dave Brown engine mount failure, and we lost no planes in 6 rounds. Speeds were faster than SSC, but fast enough that the B planes still flew well and we had a bunch of fun. The comments I heard were all positive and I think we'll be flying more Limited B in the future around here whether it becomes a provisional class or not- this should work very well for those who want to introduce pilots to combat with the hopes of getting them into Open B in the future, or for pilots who'd like to slow down their Open B ships a little for club combat.


Tim Feathers
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Post by sgilkey »

We flew two rounds of Limited B demo after our Open COmbat challenge meet at the RCCD last Saturday. We took rpm readings on several engines and will post results in the rpm thread. I didn't count the planes but would guess there were at least 10 up in both heats. Enough to tell that the speed of this class is, to me, JUST RIGHT! With that many planes, a furbll of sorts did develop. HOwever I heard several comments from folks that even though it was a furball, they were able to do more pursuit through it, changing directions several times to chase down prey. There were a few midairs and I did not get a chance to survey damage. BOb Loesher and a club newbie (12 year old DOug, flying Keith Jone's SPAD) had a brutal engien-engine shunt that sent them both down. Doug's engine was ejected and when found, had a destroyed cylinder head and other damage. Bob's plane looked totalled. Even at these speeds, an engine-engine impact is going to cause serious damage, admittedly.

My observation is that this is "constant speed" combat. The planes fly basically the same speed when climibing, diving, looping, turning, or going straight. Lose your streamer and you pick up a bit of speed but not much. If you bump someone or get into trouble, you have abundant thrust to pull out of trouble (hopefully). Takeoffs are a piece of cake. Speed appeared to be about equivalent to the better SSC planes in a straight line, but again not as much increase in dives. Turning ability was still surprisingly tight and the action was excellent- these were not wallowing pigs. 10x4 MA and 10x3 APC props weree used and results appeared very close, the MA does not appear to be dramatically inferior to the APC, but with all the airframe, engine, and pilot variability, this was impossible to accurately assess. We did a much more relevant comparision 1-1 later, and will post comments in the wing area thread started by Dr. Evil.

I received zero negative feedback on this demo, and everyone I spoke with told me they loved the speed and performance, and had a ton of fun. Even Brian and Dr. Evil, who both like the fast stuff. RUnning this demo immediately after our Open B meet, the change in speed, power, intimidation factor, etc was very apparent and my perception is that all involved felt that the Limited demo was very positive! I welcome any supporting/dissneting comments, or questions.

One other point- we had a range of Dr. Evils 72", large-wing Terminator which had just cleaned up in our Open meet, he just changed muff and prop, to SPADs. Doc's plane was clearly the best turning, and despite that big wing, gave up no speed that I could see to the smaller planes. His plane had best performance, no doubt, but there were many cuts all around, even 12 year old Doug, who just recently soloed and flew a borrowed SPAD for the first time last week, got a cut I'm told. I think everyone felt that they could be "in the hunt." Wing area does give a performance advantage, but I did not perceive it as blocking out the other plane's ability to be at least somewhat competitive!

Thanks to all who participated in the demo!

Scott Gilkey
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Post by Bad Dawg »

Kirk, Serg and I are will be prepared for a Slow B demo after the Montrose, Pa. contest on the 11th of Sept. I will bring extra mufflers for 25fx's and norvel Big Migs, and some props. I sent an email to Bill Tozer to see if it's OK with him and his club. Since Serg and KIrk have another contest on the following day I will try to set up a couple of planes for them or Bill's club members to use.

NUNC AUT NUNQUAM
Mark V.
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Post by boiler »

Scott, I just put that plane in the van for the Iowa meet. I started working on it and the damaged Cobra last night. Inital glueing. I lost one fin on the cylinder head as well as Hat's muffler and Jay's prop. The vertical stab had to be replaced and the wing had to be reconnected and reinforced. One airlion had to be pieced back as well. I will start to fly both planes that were damaged tomorrow at the Iowa field. I have no new planes and hope that will change in a couple of weeks. I get my workshop back.[:D][:D][:D]

Bob Loescher
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Post by BigCountry »

Although we lost Jimbo to work at the beginning of the day we were able to get in a couple of rounds towards a Limited B demo on Saturday once Lil C arrived in Sulphur from Houston.

I appologize I don't have any pics but the demo consisted of Lil C, Tony Duprie, Charles Warren and myself. We were able to get in two rounds after Jared arrived and before the weather rolled in and really the results were the same for us as in the past. Motors ranged from OS 25fx's and 28f's which both Tony and I were flying (Jared flew one of my additional WASP's) and Charles was running a Norvel 25. All motors were somewhere in the range of 14,600 to 14,900. I believe my 25fx was the highest turner as usual.

Tony, Charles and myself all had pretty much the same impression as before about things. We all had a great time and enjoyed the afternoon of combat. Unfortunately the one thing I really wanted to do was to weigh all planes on an extremely accurate scale that Jim owns but since he was called away to work before we even began that didn't happen. Hopefully we can do it this coming weekend as it looks as thought we'll have pretty much the same bunch back to fly again minus just Lil C.

I won't put words in his mouth but those of you that know Lil C know that he is my younger brother and has been flying combat with me now for a couple of years. If you know us you also know he flies my equipment in addition to the fact that the kid has almost no time normally to fly to keep his skills up so yesterday when he took the sticks it was the first time he had flown in two months. Again if you know Lil C you know that he's a pretty capable young pilot and if he ever does get the time factor worked out ya'll had better look out cause he can fly a combat plane. Anyway, enough gloating by big bro. I asked Jared him impression of the plane and how it flew and he really enjoyed what he saw and fealt. He said that normally for him the first few times he would fly one of my Open B planes he was pretty intimidated due to the long lack of flying but that once he got the feel for the WASP in a Limited B config he was almost instanly comfortable with the speed and ability of the plane. I'll let him jump on and elaborate more if he can but all in all he was really happy with what little he was able to see.

We had no mid-airs other than a couple of love taps which resulted in no noticeable damage to any plane so no reports there.

Bottom line it was a great day of combat that just further reinforces to me that this concept has merit. Thanks...[8D]

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Post by crashhappy »

had a great time flying limited b with yall. looking forward to more. the slasher seems to be doing good with the stock osfx25, 10x3apc, wish jimbo could have been there to get a weight on it.

Tony Duprie
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Post by Bad Dawg »

After the Montrose contest we got in two (sorta) heats of limited B. Most of the guys were more interested in getting packed up and back on the road home than flying demo heats of an event that would have no real winner other than data.

We had four planes up in each heat, and the second heat had planes up and down in it according to fuel and dirt naps. All damage sustained were from dirt naps.

Here is some hard data APC's are 10x3 and MA is 10x4 It reads type of plane, engine type, prop type, rpms measured, nitro amount, planes weight, type of wing or wing area.

Avenger Nor big mig APC 14.2 k 15% 3# 7oz stock
Gremlin 1 Nor big mig APC 12.8 k 15% 3#4oz stock
Gremlin 2 Nor big mig APC 12.6 k 15% 3#6oz stock
Choker FP APC 13.2 k 15% 3#8oz Avenger
BV-155 Fx MA 14 k 15% 3#7oz 434sq
SPAD LA APC 12.5 k 15% ? 456sq
Yakolev FX APC 13.8 k ? ? ? MAC Muffler


I flew the BV-155. It did not turn as tightly as when its rpms are in the 18-19k range. It didn't turn any more tightly than the Gremlins. Viat & Matt flew the Gremlins. Serg flew the Yakolev. Kirk Adams flew the Avenger. A montrose pilot who's name I don't remember flew the SPAD. The test Choker was loaned to Matt so he could finish the last heat of the contest and Kirk (the evil beard boy) flexed the green fuse beyond flyability with one of his Bandits, so it wasn't part of the flying test.

The weather conditions were perfect. All launches easy.

Cuts were much harder to come by. I had to fly pursuit and in two heats I only got one tap on Kirk's forestry tape streamer. and no one cut me. The opposition can see you coming and evade much more easily. All of the planes were competitive at the rpms flown, even the SPAD.

In talking about it after, Kirk brought up that some people would start to optimize their planes to make the furball come back like what happened with SSC. But as flown with your standard Open B planes, a furball was not possible.

The Montrose pilot said it was just like their old club combat before a couple of guys started flying 46fx's and their club combat went down hill in participation.

All I heard from Viat was he liked the way the Gremlin flew (It was the first time he flew a Gremmie).

I can't remember if Serg said anything other than his APC prop broke on landing. I do remember his Yakolev was the tightest turning plane in the demo.

Everybody said it was fun. I think I liked it more than any one because it was the first time I have really relaxed while flying combat in three years. I am coming to the realizaton that I am truly intimidated by the speed of 2610 and open B. I am always afraid I am going to make a mistake and hurt some one.

I am sorry that neither the demo nor this report are very organized.

NUNC AUT NUNQUAM
Mark V.
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Post by BigCountry »

Mark,

Thanks for the report, it sounds like everyone enjoyed themselves and it was a success. Only time will tell but I believe that the wing area restrictions the Dr. Evil has proposed will go a long way towards limiting that. Hopefully what we'll see is planes/kits that are within the rules now will be competitive and remain competitive well into the future...

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Post by boiler »

Mark, I was ready to fly some limited B but had a radio conflict with a local that didn't fly in the meet and wanted to fly limited. Since I have flown two rounds in Michigan and decided that I liked it, I thought it would be better to get a fresh pilot in the air. I'll take a stock muffler to Waverly and see if I can get a prop as well.

Bob Loescher
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Post by Bad Dawg »

Now that my senile brain has been jogged, Bob is 100% right. He was there and ready, then was very gracious to allow the local guy to fly in his stead. I think what surprised me the most was how Serge's plane, the Yakolev flew a tighter pattern than planes with much larger wing areas. That may follow Kirk's thinking that a plane can be optimized for Limited B thrust and speeds. Maybe it's the near eliptical shape of his wing or his airfoil choice or the size of his control surfaces or its light weight that gave it the performance I percieved. Others with cooler heads may have had a different perception, but there was something bout that plane that gave it an edge over other planes with the same wing area.

NUNC AUT NUNQUAM
Mark V.
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Post by BigCountry »

The only thing you mentioned that I would be curious about would be the weight of his plane. Now that the consensus seems to be to place the weight minimum at 3.25 pounds I'm curious what Serg's planes tipped the scales at.

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Post by boiler »

I just weighed mine with all standard gear. 3.25# on the nose. If you used lightweight radio, battery or servos, you would have room for repair weight.

Bob Loescher
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Post by sgilkey »

On Saturday, after 8 rounds of SSC at our RCCD Melee event, we tried to fly a Limited B demo but only got one heat in. Other members had shown up and were pressuring us to let them sport fly (what is sport flying???). Interesting observation: last time we did a Lim B demo, it was after finishing a day started by SSC and ended with Open B. We all said, ahhh, this speed is just right! Last weekend, we had only flown SSC, and when the LimB ships went up, folks were saying "hey, this is too fast, it doesn't seem much slower than B!" I'm not sure I understand yet how a LimB ship turning a 3 pitch prop below 14.5k is faster than an SSC turning 3 pitch at 17.5k, but on Saturday, there was no doubt- all the LimBs were faster than what we saw in SSC, and rpm were in the low-mid 14k range. Guess it's just a matter of more thrust overcoming drag.

All engines were in the range of 14.1-14.8k as I recall, with a mix of MA 10x4 and APC 10x3. one fellow was flying a small SPAD and his plane appeared to be faster than the others. we had planes ranging from the SPAD up to 64 inch span B types. Since I was flying, I regret to say that I could not formulate any impressions of performance differences between the planes. I think I am going to have to give up on flying demos, and just be content with observing.

As with our last demo where Bob Loescher was center-punched and suffered extensive damage, my beat up and trusty Hat Trick was sent to the ash heap of history when my own son dragged his prop from stern to stem along my plane, dissecting it as he travelled:

Elev cut off from stab
Stab cut off from fuse and hanging by a glob of GOOP
Fin cut off fuse
Battery lead cut
One aileron completely severed from wing
BOTH aileron p/rods, as well as the servo arm and both aileron horns, cut off wing
Aileron servo mount ripped from wing

This stalled his engine and he went down too, but undamaged. Lower speed aside, it is still interesting to see how much damage a spinning prop can do. After, I estimate, more than a hundred rounds of combat, my Hat Trick is now on its way to a landfill.

I would say this: demoing Limited B after flying SSC is not as compelling as doing it after flying Open B. After SSC, the inevitable comparison is that speed and damage potential are both up so what's the point, unless you just like 15s vs. 25s. or vice versa. (BTW there were several moans of delight when we started up for the LimB demo, as folks who had been dealing with their .15s with limited success all day pleasantly found their .25s more user friendly. The .15 lovers won't like to hear that and may try to tell me and us that we are wrong and it is all our imagination. I personally had no trouble with my .15s all day, so it's not a personal bias. I just report the facts as they happened. Many folks just seem to find the .25s easier to deal with. Can't think of anyone I have personally seen with the opposite opinion.)

We were unable to demo on Sunday, after flying the Open B part of the contest, as a debris search consumed a lot of time and it was late.

With regrets for the minimum of useful data and conclusions, I respectfully submit my report.

Scott Gilkey
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