Beginners Only Plane Specs

This is the thread to aid in development of new ideas and classes. Post working rules and gather feedback!

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jfromm
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Post by jfromm »

"Out of curiosity, is there any reason that more power than a stock .15la is needed?"

Scott,

No and it is not worth arguing on this forum. You are free to do Open-A and 1/2A which are both rule book events. I plan to start working on both in the Cincinnati area. Let's just fly and have fun!!
headshot
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Post by headshot »

Scott,

No, I will admit it is not necessary to have more power.

But, there was a local class up here where the 25 la was the popular motor for quite some time. I was just trying to make an example. There are a bunch of guys around here with the same engine sitting in their shop, just in need of a strong compatible airframe. As with Jay Fromm, I am going to focus my efforts locally on this group, just to try and grow it in the area.

Jay L.
Lou Melancon
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Post by Lou Melancon »

I wonder if there is really a need for RCCA to spec out a "beginners" class? Isn't this something that is done at the local club level? A club gets some interest in flying combat, they look at some existing rules, take what they like and fly some combat. For the fellows who want more they move on to AMA Rule book/RCCA events.

If you put together a beginner's spec class how would you contest it? And who would you let participate in it? Would you have it as part of an SSC/Open B/Limited B? Do you think you would have enough folks show up as beginners to have it?

I really think a beginner's class is something that needs to be done on a local level. We can offer suggestions but I don't think people just beginning are going to want the National SIG shoving standards down their throats.

Dane asked what should be in a beginner's level event. I would say it should be stock motors, simple planes, slower speeds, and low cost. However that plays out at the local level we should encourage.
thojo
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Post by thojo »

I would think of this more as a beginners plane more than a beginners "class". Most beginners fly because there are experienced combat pilots at the field already. Personally, I don't want to sit on the sidelines watching beginners having all the fun. I also agree that this is at a local level and not something to be setup in the RCCA for NPS.

At a local level, just insure the beginners have tough durable planes and allow longer wingspans for the beginners than you do for the experienced pilots, that will help even the odds alittle bit and let everybody have some fun at the same time.
boilermaker
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Post by boilermaker »

Lou, is the RCCA the special interest group for all RC Combat, or just for competitive events? The RCCA surely has vested interests in club combat. Combat pilots have to come from somewhere The organization may as well provide some guidance specifically for the grassroots level, particularly from a safety standpoint. What effects could a few combat related injuries in club combat have on the image of combat as a whole?

Nobodys talking about shoving anything down throats. But instead of saying "here's what we have, take a few features and take a stab at it", why not put together a set of "club combat" or "beginner combat" guidlines for clubs to simply adopt if they want to? People around here know more than a few pitfalls that clubs will never see coming!

Personally I know of 3 groups in my local area that fly combat that fly something other than RCCA combat, and none of them fly the same things! I also know 7 people in my own club that flew in the past, but were left behind when some pilots went after better planes within the rules.

Jay Fromm is right, there is no point in arguing over rules. We all know that a handful of guys with evenly matched planes are going to have a blast, regardless of skill level.

I say let a group of 3-5 well respected, experienced RCCA members write such a set of rules or even just guidlines.
Lee Liddle
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Post by Lee Liddle »

Here`s my thinking.
1) Every class of successful (large or growing) class of competition has some way for beginners and/or less skilled people to compete with some degree of success. (BEGINNER`S CLASS or Handicap system)
2) RC combat does not have ANY system in place. I don`t think "leave it up to the locals" is going to cut it. Guys can have fun with club combat, but the jump from there to RCCA events is too great for most.
3)Just because the RCCA promots an entry level event does not force any club or local group to adopt it. We would not be cramming anything down anyone`s throat.
4) Almost all of the club combat that I`ve heard of uses some sort of HOR type design. I`m sure there are others, but I`ve not seen it.

Here`s my suggestion.
1) Design a class with aircraft specs so that HOR`s can be a viable choice, but the class is not limited to Coro HOR`s.
2) This gives an RCCA member a way to introduce the RCCA to a club or local combat group.
3)If the group is large enough, have seperate classes for beginners and experienced combat pilots, even if it`s only one small heat of each. The beginner is welcome to join in the heats with the vets, but not vice versa.
4) If the group is not large enough th split the fliers, have a handicap system of some sort in place. It could be a points handicap like we will be trying out in the Nort Texas area. Or it could be shorter wings like the Joe ids suggesting.

Prediction:
If we as an Org, do not do the legwork nessesary to put an organized
beginner`s system in place, then we will continue the non-growth pattern which has been seen over the past years.

Think about it: If a new golfer had to play Tiger Woods every weekend, it might be fun for a little while, but pretty soon he`s gonna get tired of being out on the 9th hole while Tiger`s kicking back with a brew in the clubhouse. Not to mention the harrassment he`s gonna get from his buddies.
THend
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Post by THend »

I propose this class use dice and cards too. At the end of a heat, all pilots roll dice and the number they get equates to added cuts to their score.

Then they have to sit down and play a fast game of poker. The winner will be awarded full streamer points.

Finally, in the end, a name will be pulled from a hat, and the person is the winner of the event.

Sounds like everyone could win this game.[:o)]

I got started in combat at the club level. We just used basic rules provided from the AMA rule book event, and then did what we wanted. Those of us who moved on, read as ME, found RCCA events and participated. The others just wandered off, not able to cope with the demands of combat.

My first combat event was actually a fun fly combat event.[:D]
thojo
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Post by thojo »

I guess I just don't understand the fixation with rules for local combat. We've flown locally for years and there are no rules, we fly basic bats and floyds, many with 36 and 48 inch wings and everybody is happen, why complicate things so much????
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Dane McGee
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Post by Dane McGee »

I simply want ideas and suggestions on plane designs that work well on the local level so that I can build some planes to get in the hands of my local club members that may have an intrest in combat.
Hell, I'll even foot the bill!

If it turns out to be HORs, cool. If it turns out to be spec B type , cool too. It don't matter to me as long as the noobs can get a good experience with combat.

I simply want ideas on what works.
Bob Leone
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Post by Bob Leone »

I'll come fly with if you are building the planes.
Heck I'll fly with yea anyway.
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boiler
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Post by boiler »

Max, from what I have read on the forums the last 3 years, I would say HORs or a variation of them is good for beginners in club combat. To keep it even you would have to have a spec plane that is very simple for every one. One that can be built fast and cheap. It would not be easily destroyed by an identical plane. The biggest obstical to getting combat pilots from most clubs is the few numbers that actually build planes. 90 % or more of my club do not build planes. They will never fly combat unless they can buy a plane and then be reasonably assured it won't be destroyed in a short period of time. That's a far cry from what competitive combat has become.
THend
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Post by THend »

The biggest obstacle I have found is that the average Joe does not want to get into an arms race. All was cool around here until I showed up with vacuum bagged, hardwood leading edge, kevlar wrapped combat ships. I think that most common pilots like the idea of trying and flying combat, what they don't like is being outclassed. A generic class would be great for club level combat, and would maybe farm out some NPS pilots. The Fallbrook club I started with had up to 10 combat willing pilots, but they were weekend warriors, not NPS driven. It is good to offer up suggestions, but to take this class national will instantly kill it. Now, call it a spec class and you have something you could go national with, and still promote local combat.
Lee Liddle
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Post by Lee Liddle »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It is good to offer up suggestions, but to take this class national will instantly kill it. Now, call it a spec class and you have something you could go national with, and still promote local combat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Terry, would you explain to me how calling something a spec class instead of a beginner`s class will make it an instant national success. You lost me with that one.

Besides,
offering up suggestions in the form of a simple set of rules is what I`m talking about. They don`t have to use them if they don`t want to, but if two neighboring clubs wanted to mix it up, they`d at least have a common set of "suggestions" to go by.
boilermaker
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Post by boilermaker »

Offering up suggestions will get you what already happens. Pockets of club combat here and there all with slightly different variations. Variation makes it difficult for neighboring clubs to mix it up without either an advantage or extra expense.

It also leaves a lot of openings for arms races. Arms races are great for exactly 1 thing... taking a large number of people intersted enough in combat to try it and making them never want to fly it again. You take a guy that only wants to fly combat a handful of times a year. The only thing that will piss him off more than losing a plane in a midair is losing a perfectly good plane due to obsolesence.

Calling something a spec class instead of a beginners class generally indicates tighter requirements that better control "performance creep" and equipment evolution. Two things that are absolutely necessary to control if you want to outline a class that looks the same when a club in California adopts it as it would when a club in Virgina adopts it.
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