Electric Combat Previously -Battle for bean town (Lima Ohio)

This is the thread to aid in development of new ideas and classes. Post working rules and gather feedback!

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Re: Battle for bean town (Lima Ohio)

Post by boiler »

Looked like LSN might have been the first official Gnat event for 2013. Maybe my event for Memorial day weekend will be. It's a great flying beginner event. We need a great flying low power electric event or we will become a side show for new pilots that only fly electric. I liked what I saw at the last NATS with Tom Neff. Anyone else have some good ideas????? I think a 2S system or 3 S 1000 MAH max would be the best combo for beginners.
Bob (Longhaul) Loescher
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Re: Battle for bean town (Lima Ohio)

Post by Bruce B »

Hey bob, a few years ago Lee Liddle brought out a pretty neat electric setup. It was a 48 inch wing open class airframe (imagine a downsized ssc bird) with the power system from the E3696 class. It's a 9x6 Mas prop at 9000 rpm. Ran on one of the cheap chinese 2200mah 3s lipos. Don't really remember but I think the flying weight was about 2 pounds. I think there is a post on here somewhere about it.


Here is the thread. http://rccombat.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=13128
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Re: Battle for bean town (Lima Ohio)

Post by Blue Note »

SInce you asked, here's what we've been playing around with here...

The Corvo

Here is a quick look at preliminary efforts to develop a better Park Flyer combat machine. Here's the breakdown as shown in the pictures and video:

Motor : 1300KV Blue Wonder with prop saver setup - http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=2069
Prop : GWS 8040 - http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=10046
ESC : Turnigy Plush 10A - http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=4204
Battery : Turnigy Nano-Tech 1000mAh 3S - http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=11901
Receiver : Orange 6ch ( with case intact ) - http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=11965
Servos : Hextronic D-MG16 metal geared digital servos - http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=6608
Airframe : 42" Symmetrical 336sq. in. EPP/EPS combo with Coroplast fuselage and elevons
Covering : 1.5Mil laminating film ( colored with water based paint sprayed directly onto foam before covering )

AUW : 14.32oz

FYI : The above setup has been radar clocked at exactly
35mph in a smooth constant circle ( i.e. no power dives ). It may seem kind of slow, but the goal is to keep the action in close, especially since the Corvo is relatively small. It performs quite well in a tight space and the speed feels higher when that close in.

Setup :

Ailerons : High Rates = +/- 13/16" Low Rates = +/- 9/16" Soften controls with 25% expo ( Spektrum )

Elevator :
High Rates = +/- 7/16" Low Rates = +/- 1/4" Soften controls with 50% expo ( Spektrum )

CG : 1.7" behind the leading edge at the center of the wing

Notes : I like my planes sensitive and responsive. Slightly less Elevator throws than even the low rates above would probably be best in the beginning. My High Rate setting may be too aggressive for many and requires restraint to keep from snapping in maneuvers as the plane slows. Low rates are typically aggressive enough.

The coloring was applied directly to the foam with a water-based paint thinned and sprayed through an airbrush. Not all paints are created equal. The red on my prototype has faded to almost white from reacting with the UV rays. Currently, I am inclined to use latex house paint, which is known to be foam safe. Still, test it on some scrap. You can pick up any color ( Behr ) you want in small sample sized quantities at Home Depot for under $3 each, which provides you PLENTY enough for a ton of planes.

The laminate covering requires high heat ( iron set almost to full ) to attach firmly to the foam, but once it does, it stays very well. This being said, you must be careful and quick with the iron. Staying in one place too long will quickly change your airfoil as the foam melts away. Practice on some scrap ( wing husks ) before covering the wing for the first time. I like the ability to paint your markings and details on the wing, as fancy as you want, without needing a bunch of different covering films. The laminate proves lighter and more tear resistant than the other colored shrink films I have tried. Just my $.02. Experimentation with other covering methods is bound to happen as each of you approach that step.

This particular plane has been in the hands of many pilots and has suffered MANY hard knocks and full throttle hits without any damage. It will pull a standard crepe paper combat ribbon without issues and is intended for 8 minute rounds, although it will usually fly right at 10 minutes without overdrawing the battery. It also handles the wind amazingly well and is currently my "go to" plane when I want to fly combat. It essentially flies like the big boys without the mess or noise. It is almost silent, but the video below had so much talking in the background that I chose to replace it with music. I have yet to capture a combat round with multiples going at once, but I think the solo flight gives you a good idea. My ideas for scoring and regulation of the "class" differ from the usual RCCA approach, but that is a topic for another discussion...


ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

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Re: Battle for bean town (Lima Ohio)

Post by boiler »

That's what I was thinking. If the wind did affect it too much a shorter wingspan might work. It is a good performing,durable, and low weight model. Just what is needed. I would like to try one.
Bob (Longhaul) Loescher
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Re: Battle for bean town (Lima Ohio)

Post by boiler »

I read the old posts by Lee and the intents of the designs are similar but I feel the 14 OZ verses the 28 Oz model equals less damage in collisions with other planes or mother earth. KE=1/2 mv squared.
Bob (Longhaul) Loescher
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Bring those planes in closer where I can see them.
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Re: Battle for bean town (Lima Ohio)

Post by Blue Note »

My original goal with the Corvo was to address the lack of a Park-Flyer electric combat "class" that was missing for the newbies, small venues, and the electric-only generation. The Corvo is simply my concept for a design that would qualify for the class, but many off-the-shelf kits and ARFs could also be used. This class is intended for people new to combat and does not necessarily cater convenience for our existing RCCA participants. It is intended to lure in new people that would otherwise never try combat with hopes that their interest will grow into the other established classes. Here, local pilots interested in combat reportedly find the RCCA rules and guidelines a bit too restrictive and unnecessary, especially for an all electric class, so I have decided to continue to develop what I am calling the e1000 "class" at the local level. While the safety standards of all RCCA combat remain, rules and scoring are quite a bit different in order to allow as much variety and ingenuity as possible, while keeping the playing field essentially equal. However, I feel this would be a subject better suited for a different thread. As far as the Corvo is concerned, my original intent has been to make it an open source design and possibly include a brief build thread for the finer details, especially since many of us here have acquired the equipment and skills necessary to cut foam wings. Increasing financial pressures coupled with the inability to justify building and transporting yet another class of nitro-powered planes ( Gnats ) across the country to fly the same number of event rounds will probably keep me from traveling to many events this year. If you wish to pursue the concept of a Park-Flyer combat class, let me know and I'll provide more information on the Corvo and my e1000 class development. If properly executed, I believe it could become a very enticing activity for a new generation of combat pilots. This population of pilots certainly warrants some attention either way.
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Re: Battle for bean town (Lima Ohio)

Post by Bruce B »

If its an entry level park flyer type class you are looking for why not have a parkzone warbird class. Just restrict it yo stock parkzone motors and battery capacity. Seems to be parkzone planes at every field in the nation. My worry is having time to build for the classes we have going in this area already(ssc,open b,scale). The Gnat class will just use up my ssc gear if I decide to get into that. Might be nice to be able to fly a 100% off the shelf plane. People will fly arf's all day long around here but if they have to build for something forget about it.
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Re: Electric Combat Previously -Battle for bean town (Lima O

Post by nitrofreak »

If you make it a stock class you just have to be very careful about what you allow and you have to remember that this is for beginners. Aside from getting the class off the ground, it would be hard to justify allowing a pilot like Bruce to fly in this class regularly. Maybe you make him fly tail heavy or something to even the field. :twisted:

This is a tough spot that the car guys have been battling forever. You need a stock class to get things started, but, when I was racing, the stock class was more of a money and experience game because the veterans knew every little tweak they could make to destroy everyone else. This was far from fun for someone just starting out. The only difference here is that pilots are nicer than drivers and actually share information, parts, and generally help each other out. I don't want to throw too much muck in the pot, but this is something to think about.

It would be a little more work, but maybe a good way to get this sort of thing off the ground would be to have a few handout planes for this class at the meets. Charge a few extra bux at the entry to cover the cost. You might need to make sure it's not their first time flying, but this could be accomplished with a quick flying test. I like the idea of a low power electric class. It certainly lowers the cost barrier for someone getting started and the idea of an ARF class allows guys to bring out stuff they already have. The only problem with this is that they may not understand how much their precious warbird is going to get beat on in combat.
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Re: Electric Combat Previously -Battle for bean town (Lima O

Post by boiler »

I have a Tuff Flight Stingray EPP foam ducted fan that I have flown a lot. I'll try it in combat this year but it has a small wingspan and tapered leading edge. It uses a ducted fan which shouldn't harm others.
I picked up a Flying Foam Joker kit at the Toledo show. It has a forward swept 36 inch wing that should work well. The motor is in the front.
The trick will be getting the cg right and getting a motor and speed control to go with the 1000 mah battery. It was designed for a 2200 mah battery and larger motor. Keith Jones is working on his now but I won't be starting on mine till his is done. I can learn from his experience.
Bob (Longhaul) Loescher
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Bring those planes in closer where I can see them.
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Re: Electric Combat Previously -Battle for bean town (Lima O

Post by lightning »

Don Veres and I both bought Joker kits from Flyingfoam.https://www.flyingfoam.com/.
Bob bought two of 'em.

I have already made a couple of changes to make it more combat worthy! (A single 4/40 nylon bolt is NOT going to handle a mid-air or dirt-nap!)
I also feel that slotting the wing to go each side of the fin is going to result in a wrecked wing, so am moving the fin back so the wing will clear if it swings around.
I have the motor/ESC/battery combo that Chris Gunter (Bluenote) is proposing for E-combat but I suspect I will be adding nose weight to this beast to get it to balance.
Personally, while the kit is complete with all hardware and the foam is very well cut, at $79 (or $139 for 2) plus shipping, I think it is overpriced.
The Flying foam guys at Toledo gave us a price break ($50/kit) which is still a tad high IMO.
Wing is built, have not started the fuse as I'm waiting for the hardware and the fuse has to be hollowed out to accommodate it.

Stay tuned!
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Re: Electric Combat Previously -Battle for bean town (Lima O

Post by Blue Note »

lightning wrote:Don Veres and I both bought Joker kits from Flyingfoam.https://www.flyingfoam.com/.
Bob bought two of 'em.

I have already made a couple of changes to make it more combat worthy! (A single 4/40 nylon bolt is NOT going to handle a mid-air or dirt-nap!)
I also feel that slotting the wing to go each side of the fin is going to result in a wrecked wing, so am moving the fin back so the wing will clear if it swings around.
I have the motor/ESC/battery combo that Chris Gunter (Bluenote) is proposing for E-combat but I suspect I will be adding nose weight to this beast to get it to balance.
Personally, while the kit is complete with all hardware and the foam is very well cut, at $79 (or $139 for 2) plus shipping, I think it is overpriced.
The Flying foam guys at Toledo gave us a price break ($50/kit) which is still a tad high IMO.
Wing is built, have not started the fuse as I'm waiting for the hardware and the fuse has to be hollowed out to accommodate it.

Stay tuned!

That's a good combo for up to about 16oz, but higher than that and you'll be lacking a bit on the vertical. Also remember, my development of the Corvo with that arrangement was intended for slightly different conditions than the typical RCCA format. I designed my plane with 8 minute rounds in mind and heavy penalties if you don't complete the round, thus you might be carrying around unusable weight if you are still intending the shorter 5 minute rounds. I think the 5 minute rounds makes sense with nitro planes due to the rate of fuel consumption of the engines when coupled with the appropriate sized tank, but this limitation does not apply to electric in the same way. We also are playing with the idea of contact penalties to encourage a more realistic strategy since in real life, if you don't make it back to base...you still lose. I propose you can use any plane, motor, esc or battery combination you want (of any cell count ) as long as the total plane capacity is 1000mAh or less. W also require of a prop saver system for minimizing damage to each others planes when you do have some rubbing. It is essentially all governed by the battery limitation, round length, and a heavy tweaking of the scoring system... at least for me. Your final resolution may differ. So far, this general approach has encourage much diversity in approaches, be it planes for offense, defense, or whatever, plus there is a lot of wiggle room for what qualifies. Scratch built, kit built, even ARFs can enter in the mix easily. If your plane is a rocket, you'll have trouble making the time and loose big points. If it is heavy, you might be tough, but lack maneuverability...and the compromises go on and on and on...
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Re: Electric Combat Previously -Battle for bean town (Lima O

Post by boiler »

I found a super fast and cheap wing build on rc groups. The wing can be built in a couple of minutes and is amazingly strong for $1 or less. I plan to make a few 30 inch wings and need to get creative for a fuse or motor mount.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1504758
Bob (Longhaul) Loescher
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Bring those planes in closer where I can see them.
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Re: Electric Combat Previously -Battle for bean town (Lima O

Post by midair02 »

Here's what I got for an E-1000 plane. It is a modified Mike Fredricks Arrow that I bought at a swap meet.

Motor: HobbyKing Donkey ST2004-1550kv Brushless Motor
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... Motor.html
Battery: Turnigy nano-tech 950mah 3S 25~50C Lipo Pack
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... _Pack.html
ESC: TURNIGY Plush 12amp (2A BEC) BESC
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... _BESC.html
Prop: 8x4 GWS copy
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... _Bag_.html
AUW: 17.6 oz - This plane was built by someone else and I am sure I can shed an ounce or so by not using so much tape/glue and a smaller elevator servo.

Off a freshly charged battery, it pulled just over 10 amps and turned 9800 rpm. It settled down to 9 amps and 9300 rpm and held that for awhile. After a quick test flight, I flew it at full throttle for 5.5 minutes on a fully charged battery. The motor was a little on the hot side. Not untouchable, but hot. Definately at the top end of what the motor can handle. Recharged the battery and put back in 705 mAh.

Image

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Re: Electric Combat Previously -Battle for bean town (Lima O

Post by boiler »

Thanks for keeping us updated William. Hope to play with electrics and Gnats at the NATS.
Bob (Longhaul) Loescher
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Bring those planes in closer where I can see them.
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Re: Electric Combat Previously -Battle for bean town (Lima O

Post by PFawcett »

Chris, if you're willing to share the dimensions (tip and tip chord, sweep)for that plane, I'd like to build one.
Paul Fawcett
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