What to fly in 07. Member Poll


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aseaholm
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Post by aseaholm »

Open B - 3
SSC - 2
2610 - 0
2548 - 0
Lim B - 3
e3696 - 3
Lim 1/2A - 0

Since, Scott started this up again, I might as well offer my opinion on this subject. ("Great, we have to read Seaholms' opinions again. He doesn't even fly combat anymore, does he?". I'm sure many of you are thinking, but I'm still an RCCA member and entitled to one, right? "NO". Tough, here it is anyway...[:D])

Here's the combat progression that I have witnessed/partaken in over the years. Which is 8 if anyone is counting along at home, the days of Whipper Snapperhood are gone, the big 3-0 in a month, ouch...

- The spark plug, an area's go getting/organizer, gets the bug.
- The spark plug spurs interest and gets a half dozen+ local guys going.
- The spark plug joins the RCCA and begins to compete and support the organization.
- Local interest wanes with the plug spending time supporting/leading, prepping, traveling, and competing at events
- Local interest dies as the plug enters the burn out phase trying to keep up with competition and attrition.
- Plug gives it up because the fun factor (time invested:fun) ratio is not worth it any more

By dangling 2-4 events in an area before competitors, the urge to try and fly all of these classes is there. Resistance is futile and we all try to get as much bang for our combat day buck as possible. Which means in a lot of cases 10+ planes to fly the various classes. Which means more time preparing/maintaining. Which now requires about a year to get tired of and move on.

IMO, what class proliferation has done is accelerate the "gets the bug" to "gives it up" cycle for our spark plugs. Giving the plug less time to find, excite, and pass the torch to the next plug.

<b>More classes = Quicker Plug Burn Out = Less Future Plug Recruiting = Decline in RCCA Membership</b>

Say it ain't so...

From a competitor's standpoint. These simple changes would entice me and potentially others back. Since our recruiting of new comers seems lack luster, why not go after some of the those that have dropped out?

<b>Limit classes per day at an event to 1</b>

<b>Limit plane entries per class to 2</b>
- For a 6-8 round contest (NATS get 3 per class for 10 rounds, c'mon, it's the World Series of Combat baby)

<b>Combine 2548 and 2610</b>
- Scale to 48"
- Min weight 3 lbs.
- Loose the pipes
- Max pitch 4"
- 15% Nitro
- Max planes per heat 6

<b>Combine Open B and Limited B</b>
- Max span 64"
- Max area 600 sq. in.
- Min weight 3 lbs.
- Loose the pipes
- Max pitch 4"
- 15% Nitro
- Max planes per heat 6
- Institute a Standard and Expert scheme. Everyone flies together but Standard and Expert divisions are awarded separately. After a competitor averages 200 points or more in 2 consecutive events, they're an Expert.

<b>Turn Open A into SSC</b>

<b>Eliminate provisional classes</b>

That's all I have to say about that...

3696 looks like fun. The smaller planes and lighter weights may make it less destructive as well. Why not try the 2 plane per event there???

There are a couple local clubs planning to host some combat this season. I'm looking forward to chasing some streamers this year. But the desire to rearm with gear for 3-4 B planes is not there. SSC is fun, but local interest has died.

We also have permission to demo combat at a couple pylon races this year. In addition, we have a couple pylon buds ready to try combat in FL.

So, I may not fly much anymore, but I'm still contributing... Ha!

Back to the shadows...

Sincerely,
Class Proliferated
Captain America
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Post by Captain America »

Thanks AJ, I really hate typing so now I can just second the motion from the young man in MO.

Sean
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Post by Hat Trick »

I agree with AJ 100%!

As usual the Devil is in the details! Logistically there is no way to combine classes.
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Post by jj »

Hey, what's the deal with agreement[}:)]

In many respects I think RC Combat is somewhat in an adolescent mode right now and classes will eventually settle out. It hasn't been that much of an issue in the Colorado area because there is a strong core group of Open B pilots and so the typical event is Open B and the class deJour.

Key thing that AJ brings up is the inherent problem with a one cylinder or one ignition system engine. Full scale planes have dual ignition systems for better performance but mainly for reliability. If one plug goes out your engine still runs. Likewise if there is only one "spark plug" running events in an area you are very susceptible to burn out. Having multiple "spark plugs" in an area and one or two core classes that are the mainstay keeps things going. Easier said than done, but we've already had some people go through the burnout cycle and come back again.

I do like the plane limit concept and also a multiple class system for events. In most racing you have qualifiers and then an A, B, and even C mains. Maybe you aren't in the A Main, but a novice can look forward to "winning" the B or C Main and eventually qualifying for an A Main at some point. I think all the pilots would like that as you are flying against similar skill levels, making it more challenging. People could try this out at local events. Your points would still be scored the same way. Only the last round pairing of an event would be different.
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Air Scharnell
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Post by Air Scharnell »

You could try that on a local club level for starters.....
And one bad day flying removes you from advanced too rookie ?
Which you well know JJ , I had those last year.
Plane limits are fine locally, we still have our HIGH ALT too contend with.
Remove the the combat cans the ultra thrust and see how long we fly here.
SSC is marginal at best with a weak engine run. Dirt nap anyone.
Im not whining!
Just the facts.
Thats my HMO.....
ps:
Hiya AJ long time [;)]
sgilkey
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Post by sgilkey »

Would love to detune B. There were efforts to do that, ban cans, etc, but the hipo lovers wouldn't budge. Kind of like the scale hardcores wouldn't budge on 2610 rules and it ended up dying. B may not die but is sure is atrophying. Get rid of cans, max wing area, min wt, still lots of performance to be had but not so extreme that only the most gifted noob has a shot at survival. Detune B and get rid of LimB would be a sweet compromise, to me.

Only prob is, B is an AMA rulebook event. We're all keeping 2610 as the Terry Schaivo of combat because it is a Rule Book Event, so 6-8 guys fly it at the nats and nowhere else. If we detune B we need to change the AMA rule book (with its glacial rules change cycle) or have another dinosaur class on the AMA books and have no real AMA class.
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Which_way_is_up
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Post by Which_way_is_up »

The problem is that it'll take leaders with Rhino skin and a heavy set of b....... to ever formally clean up the AMA official class issue. You saw what the petty back bitting did to one of our previous presidents, Lou. I won't name names but you know the trolls who come on the forum, send flaming emails and in general raise havoc whenever suggestions for changes where made to the official classes.

If it weren't for the provisional classes we'd have half of the few members we do have today. After 9 years in combat I quit flying Open B three or four years ago and if it wasn't for SSC and the promise of the electrics I wouldn't be here today. Of those four years, the last two years I haven't flown any combat but in these four years I been RCCA officer, webmaster for two combat web sites, CD and assistant CD for countless events, source for wing cores and kits, made two trips at my cost to support Rick at the Nats and didn't fly either time, etc.

I'm one of those "spark plugs" that has just about had it with the me, me, me, me attitudes that I see and all the whinning in general.

Some folks just need to be thankful that they have any combat to fly for the effort they've put in.
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Post by jj »

My prediction [:D]

Based on Q-500 pylon. Yeah, I was around when Q-500 first got started. (I've got 20 years on you AJ) The whole point of Q500 was to have an entry level class where people could fly their sport 40 airplanes with sport engines (note the useable carb requirement) at a pylon event without needing to build specialized airplanes. that worked and was great for 5 years or so but then as Q500 started getting more popular the big guns came in with the incredibly expensive Nelson and Jett 40s, which were completely against the concept of Q500 and they basically killed the class for the average Sunday flyer. Eventually the 424 class was set up that limited the engine to revive the original spirit of Q500. So now the entry class is 424 and the big pylon guns all fly Nelson class. Only real difference is the cost of the engine.

Now the engines typically used in Open B are Not anywhere near what a Nelson is. Yes, we've seen a couple of Jetts, but they are not showing up in the winners circles.

So I believe we will eventually mimic Pylon with an Open B Class as well as SSC and a Limited Class.

In Pylon this is working well. In some parts of the country (I believe midwest) they fly 424 almost exclusively. Down in Texas there is a Big Nelson class following, and there is a mix of classes in other regions based on local interest. I think we also have an option to get a decent electric class (perhaps e3696) which hasn't quite gelled that well in pylon (to my knowledge).
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Post by jj »

BTW, before we call anything a Dinosaur class I think people should look at the interest and participation level.

Last year there were 64 RCCA contestants in Open B for NPS events. It was the second most popular class BY FAR with almost 4 times as many participants as 2610 or 2548. BTW there were two more 2610 RCCA participants than there were 2548. The current registration for LSN has 16 people signed up for SSC and 15 signed up for Open B and I expect plenty more people will sign up in the next month or so.

In addition to the RCCA NPS events and pilots there are plenty of club events and non-RCCA participants. Combat is doing well compared to a lot of AMA classes out there.

The point of this whole thread is to LISTEN to what pilots want to fly so we can, on a region by region basis, tailor events to what the market wants. Unfortunately some people want to impose their will on others and kill off classes because it is not what they want to fly or see others fly. That is inane.

There are healthy classes in combat and as long as we listen to what people want in a given region and hold events to match then we will be fine. If one region or faction tries to impose its preferences on another reigionor faction that doesn't like it, you get a civil war and waste everyones time and energy.

Again, this thread was set up to allow us to Listen, not preach.

Fortunately I've seen a lot of new (and old) people posting on this thread as a result, whereas most of the other RCCA threads haven't been touched in many months.
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boiler
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Post by boiler »

As the thread was set up, it asked what did you plan to fly this year if offered. I gave a 5 to all events and some that weren't mentioned. I want to play with anyone that wants to tow a streamer. Open B or Limited B; 2610 or 2548; SSC or 1/2A; Nitro or electric; streamer or non rcca? I want to fly combat. There are some that won't fly one class for their own reasons which is valid. The problem is that some of these people aren't content with not playing with the others that like that class, they want to knock it and start an argument as to why you shouldn't fly it. That's not constructive. If a class is rule book, provisional, or demo in status; it's there because someone thinks it if fun. You may not prefer it but if they think it is fun, let them play. Both you and they can support combat in general and keep it a viable part of AMA by supporting the RCCA. With out wide spread support of rc combat, the AMA wouldn't allow it as a sanctioned event. I don't like preparing and keeping up with all the different classes any moe than anyone else. In time, there will be fewer as some will just die out. Last year it looked like both 2610 and 2548 were near death at the NATS. 2548 has a little more strength in the South. 3696 is still another scale class which requires re-tooling to electric for a lot of us that aren't versed in electric. It does offer potential to draw new blood from the electric only guys and it is a SCALE class that appeals the the WWII buffs. I don't knock the new stuff because it could be the future. Maybe not. But knocking the new won't revive the old. Staying enthused and supporting the old could draw more playmates. I know several pilots that stopped flying 2610 and combat altogether because it was flown less often than they wanted and they didn't care for one of the new classes. How does that help 2610???? It only confirms the idea that it will die. Sorry for the tirade, I'll try to keep quiet and see if we get more constructive.
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Post by jj »

Hey Longhaul, I agree 100% [:D]

This is fun, we need to keep it fun and make sure we offer what people want to fly at contests and at fun fly events. Others have put up all 5s too. Thanks to WebPilot, we have held a club fun combat meet every first Sa* * * *ay of the month except when we have a sanctioned event. Typically a few days before most of the locals decide what, other than Open B, we will bring out to fly. These are also great events for getting people started, but they don't rack up points for NPS.

I really just wanted this thread to be a way to get input on interest in the events. I think I have enough data now to post some results, although I would have liked to hear from more of the membership. It is too bad I don't have a good way of sorting this by region.

While I didn't want comments or debate, we are an opinionated bunch and really care about the RCCA. That is better than apathy.

Not sure if this info will help any CD or event promoter learn more about what the pilots want, but hopefully the combat community will know that people are interested in what They want to fly to have fun.

BTW, I also do race karting now and last week the local tracks asked all the local participants to come out for free pizza and two kegs of beer just to hear what everyone thought about the upcoming races and rules for 2007. They pretty much stuck with the program they laid out, but also made a few key changes based on the comments from the local karters that came and drank the beer. What a concept[;)]
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Post by jj »

Poll results so far. 40 poll participants but no regional information is available. 40 out of RCCA membership and posters is a statistically significant sample.

Positive Participation (PP) is where people voted a 5
Likely Participation (LP) counts all 3s, 4s, or 5s.

<font face="Courier New">Class PP - LP
SSC-- 16 - 31 - The most likely participants
OpenB 21 - 29 - The most positive participants
e3696 13 - 20 - amazing interest level for an emerging electric scale class
Lim B 10 - 18 - good numbers reflects relative 2006 NPS interest level
2548-- 10 - 17 - reflects 2006 interest levels from sanctioned events
2610-- 6 - 12 - less than 2006 interest levels from sanctioned events</font id="Courier New">
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Post by Captain America »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by boiler</i>
<br /> But knocking the new won't revive the old. Staying enthused and supporting the old could draw more playmates.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

[:)] Playmates? Id be willing to do just about anything if you can get the playmates to come!
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Post by sgilkey »

I didn't call B a dinosaur class. I meant if we were to detune B as AJ suggests and create a hybrid class combining the best of B and LimB, THEN the B class on the AMA books would be a dinosaur. That might fix RCCA participation but would put us in a pickle with the rule book status and "official" NATS events. Not sure that is a killer, mind you, but it is an issue with "cred" with AMA. I like the detuning approach, myself....
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Post by jj »

Scott, sorry I mis-interpreted what you meant.

My point about Q-500 pylon was that, rather than de-tuning the Nelsons and Jetts when they blew past the stock .40s, another class was added that spec'd a more standard .40 type engine. Each region has its favorites but both the Nelson Class and 424 are doing well. And then there is the even faster Q40 class that has just a handful of participants and events each year, but I doubt that the pylon community would want to cancel out any of those classes. Locally people are running slower, cheaper classes to draw more newbys, but that is adding easier classes and events at a club level, and not changing the rules on the other classes.
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