Glimpse of AMA`s Rules Board`s Smoke Filled Room


Moderator: hbartel

Lee Liddle
Posts: 3330
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:30 pm
Location: USA

Post by Lee Liddle »

Just making the title fit the posts.
sgilkey
Posts: 2351
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 8:26 am

Post by sgilkey »

Kirk, Despite all the what-if's you haven't cited an actual example of obsolescence. And what rule change have we implemented that would have kept somebody from flying if they had traveled to a contest? how does allowing e keep someone from flying? increasing weight in 2610- that only OPENED competition. I like to think that the district reps would consider these alleged obsolescence issues when voting.

If there were/are such concerns, it is the responsibility of the member to make his concerns known to the district rep and/or post them on the discussion forums. Maybe everybody doesn't check the forums, but in today's world if you're not online you're in a bit of a minority and how is it our responsiblity to make sure every last person stays informed? If you're gonna compete you need to be aware of the rules and RCCA, with no newsletter, communicates thru the website. heck, you pretty much need to go to the website to sign up, no??? seems like you'd kinda know that, going in.

Lee, the e-enthusiasts took advantage (properly) of the provisional status to get the e-clauses in SSC, and the associated rules changes have hardly been proven out. I think your opinion that SSC is now ready to be cast in AMA stone is a bit premature.

The rapid rules change provisions in AMA are for emergencies/safety only, to my knowledge, and could not be used if, say, we blew it with the way E was incorporated into SSC, I don't think....
slam
Posts: 834
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 8:14 pm
Location: USA

Post by slam »

this will be my first and last contribution to this thread.......

i have been reading and thinking.....

the really important point that has been brought up has been widely ignored........

LOU HAS QUIT SMOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

congrats on his perseverence. continue the good work.

o.k. the other discussions can be continued.

slam
montague
Posts: 1639
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 3:24 pm
Location: Maryland
Contact:

Post by montague »

Lee,
I agree that the current state of the art has been well tested, and generally works out.

But I can't see the future very clearly, and I suspect that's the case with everyone. And it's the future that I am more concered about.

There aren't any super batteries here, but batteries are getting better and better almost monthly. Right now you have problems getting enough capacity to hold constant power all the way through the match. But with an approprate regulator/esc combinaion and better batteries that won't be the case forever.

I've said several times, and I'll say it again, electrics in general are a good thing, but I'm not comfortable with the way the rules are set up as far as keeping the money issues out of the event. At the very least the rules related to spending on power systems is uneven. But it's really a minor point, since I'm mostly trying to talk about process and so on.

And what you wrote above, and the fact that a fair number of people seem to not understand how things happens actually proves my point that the RCCA's provisional rules system didn't really work very well in this case. It was a mess, things got confused, guys almost were told they couldn't fly their gear, and so on. A lot of that happened because everyone was trying to move very very quickly, espcially the RCCA board, which was trying to vote on things well before most of their membership had any idea at all that things were going on.

So thanks for laying out what happened, and proving that I'm right about the current RCCA system being seriously flawed.

I don't want a repeat of that, do you? As it is, nothing has changed and the RCCA is all set up to repeat that kind of thing over and over.

And yes, I'm aware that provisional events have a mid-year change set up. I'm suggesting that it probably should be changed to a yearly cycle to keep things sane. I actually doubt the RCCA can handle a 6-month cycle consistantly.

(responding to a post at a time, so more in a moment)
montague
Posts: 1639
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 3:24 pm
Location: Maryland
Contact:

Post by montague »

Lou,
You make it sound like combat pilots are somehow differnet from Pylon, IMAC, Heli or anyone else out there who flys AMA rule book events. I believe you're very wrong there. And I don't think slowing down the rules cycle enough so that people can catch up will kill anything. I believe that you will get the same changes anyway, just slower, and you will get an overall increase in participation.

And my experience out here with the pilots in this area disagrees with your "none of this matters" statement. Maybe it doesn't matter there, but it does matter. One thing I can point to is what has happened to scale combat recently. We went from 2610 being flown all over the country though in limited numbers to 3-5 differnet scale classes being flown, since the mile-high group and the west coast guys have decided to go their own way instead of flying 2548. There may or may not be more people flying scale, but we are back to having everyone flying their own local classes.

Last, a lot of guys would like SSC to be flown early at Nats, and have the garenteed time slot. Which would make sense, since it's the most popular event. But because it's not rule book, that's not possible. The fact is that relations with the AMA DO matter, and the RCCA does not exist in a vacume, though it usually seems to act as if it was.
montague
Posts: 1639
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 3:24 pm
Location: Maryland
Contact:

Post by montague »

Lou,
Congrats on kicking the habit for so long. Keep it up!
montague
Posts: 1639
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 3:24 pm
Location: Maryland
Contact:

Post by montague »

Scott,
If you read what I wrote, you'll see that I clearly said that there hasn't been a major case of obsolescence yet. But are you willing to bet that it won't happen?

It looks like the electric thing is working out for the best. The RCCA got lucky on that one, I think. Do you honestly think the systme worked well there? I don't.

This discussion is about what we should do in the future, right? I don't have your confidence that there won't be larger problems in the future.

And as much as you want to believe that all RCCA members keep up with the forums, they don't. Even the ones that use the contest calendar to see what is going on, and use the website to renew don't necessarly have the time or effort to wade through all the BS on here. And they shouldn't have to. It takes TIME to "get the word out" when rules change, and more importantly, it takes time for people to find out about proposals.

It's too bad you weren't at the RCCA meeting last year at Nats. You'd have seen all the guys there who had NO IDEA that all the electric stuff was being talked about on the forums, or that guys had ALREADY flown electrics in an NPS event. That's right, RCCA member AT NATS didn't know about a rule that was already in effect at other events.

Scott, you have a small, tight nit group up there, and that's great. And several of the guys there seem to spend a lot of time on the forums, and that's nice. But unfortuantly you really have no clue what goes on elsewhere, even elsewhere in your own RCCA district. Heck, what effort did you make to contact the RCCA members in your district about up coming rules changes? What effort did any RCCA board member make? From what I can tell, the forums were IT. And only a fairly short period of time on the forums either.

And finally, you're wrong about the AMA out-of cycle rules changes only being for safety issues. That's the most common and easiest to do, but read the reference I already posted, it spells it out clearly.
Lee Liddle
Posts: 3330
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:30 pm
Location: USA

Post by Lee Liddle »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">And yes, I'm aware that provisional events have a mid-year change set up. I'm suggesting that it probably should be changed to a yearly cycle to keep things sane. I actually doubt the RCCA can handle a 6-month cycle consistantly.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Kirk, I agree with you on this point. If you want to work toward making that change in the PnP, you would have my support.
Lou Melancon
Posts: 2389
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2001 5:16 pm
Contact:

Post by Lou Melancon »

Kirk & Lee,
Only provisional Events have two change points per year. Rule Book classes have the same rules change cycle as the AMA cycle. RCCA and AMA rules change cycles are synchronized to each other.
Vapor52
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:56 am

Post by Vapor52 »

Kirk, SSC not being rulebook has no effect on when its flown, the AMA doesn't care. Way last fall the membership was polled by Bob & I to get the jist on how everyone wanted the events flown, we made decisions on the feedback we got. No matter how we do it, we can not please everyone--------rick
User avatar
Air Scharnell
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:59 am
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Post by Air Scharnell »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by montague</i>
<br /> since the mile-high group and the west coast guys have decided to go their own way instead of flying 2548. There may or may not be more people flying scale, but we are back to having everyone flying their own local classes.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That would be for 1 reason! They barely launch,add any wind and you will dirt nap more than fly, Thanks too thin AIR.
But then again we are at 5300ft elevation. Sorry we have a handicap.
sgilkey
Posts: 2351
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 8:26 am

Post by sgilkey »

Kirk, I'm glad you think the RCCA "got lucky," I saw it as a time-consuming, sometimes contentious and onerous debate that took place before a consensus was arrived at, a proposal was drafted, voted on, and passed (and in the case of some aspects of e-proposals, not passed). the other option would have been to "slow down" and basically exclude e. I, and apparently the others who voted in favor, did not see that as a better option.


If you think I'm clueless about what's going on outside of my own backyard, that suits me fine. Perhaps someday you can clue me in on how you take the pulse of the whole country. At least I participated in the vigorous discussions on this, and other, topics, rather than coming in and monday-morning q-backing. And yes I did discuss it with people outside the forums.

You have no clue as to what I did or did not do to gather info, outside of the forums, to cast my vote. I will admit I did not contact you, a member of the Rules Committee, whom I assumed would be 1) informed, and 2) savvy enough to make your opinions known, either online or to your district rep. Which, to be frank, you declined to do. Other than reaming me out afterwards for my vote (despite not having given your input during the debates, which to be frank I would have welcomed since I was getting hammered for my opposition to the "no price limit" aspects of the e-proposals. If you think I am going to canvas every member of the district for my vote, you are mistaken and are welcome to vote in favor of my opponent(s)to punish me for my laxity. It's YOUR responsibility to make your feelings known. I can't recall the last time any elected official I can think of, in any capacity, contacted me for my opinon. I try to find out what folks are thinking but I'm not going call everyone all the time.
Lee Liddle
Posts: 3330
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:30 pm
Location: USA

Post by Lee Liddle »

There is a provision for a different prop above 3500ft. If that doesn`t work, maybe we should find out what does work and modify the altitude prop/rpm numbers for altitude. It could be changed in August.[}:)]
Lee Liddle
Posts: 3330
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:30 pm
Location: USA

Post by Lee Liddle »

Lou, I didn`t realize that you were having nicotine withdrawal. If I had, I would have given you a pass for some of that rant of yours. Congrats on kicking the habit, good luck.
drewjet
Posts: 1101
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 5:24 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by drewjet »

WOW. Lou quit. Way to go, how's it feel to breathe?
Post Reply

Return to “Trends in Participation”