combat needs help


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draftman1
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combat needs help

Post by draftman1 »

I was just thinking about things we can do to help combat, Whether its getting new people or changing the way that combat is. there are so many reasons why people wont try combat or get out of it. Some are things that we can do and some are just out of our control. There are things that we can do that might help, we are all grown adults, lets keep this civilized and try to come up with some good solid solutions.

Im gona through some ideas that I have had to help.

Classes: can we get rid of or consolidate some classes? ie....

an e class or an e class that can compete in the SSC class, the current rules make it hard for an e-power to compete with glow power, get rid of the RPM or have them at different RPMs to make them more evenly matched due to unloading

scale, one class please.... or maybe a combo of scale and SSC rules. we did the semi scale planes in SSC, it was alot of fun!

B, I love open B, i cut my teeth on it but do we really need both? open and limited?? if we want an B class, just make like the limited, stock mufflers, no rpm or prop spec, thats would make a good in-between class

an entry level type, the gnat sounds good but again, e-power needs to be equal, SSc can also fill the bill on an entry level type

what do you guys think? ideas??
Andy Erwin
central CA
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Re: combat needs help

Post by boiler »

I think we need an e only class like Iowa or tenn. are working with. Electric and nitro do not mix well. In open B I have seen electrics kick ass but who knows what CID nitro equivalent was being used. The rpm thing was a problem since many nitro engines unloaded. If you want to reduce nitro classes SSC is by far the most popular open class and 2948 is the most popular scale class. If you must have a B class open design, Limited B can be attempted by SSC pilots using their SSC plane. We are experimenting with electrics and the Gnat is an attempt to get non builders into combat as many new pilots are not builders. Many new pilots also want nothing to do with nitro planes.
Bob (Longhaul) Loescher
rcca# 621 RC Combat Geezer
Bring those planes in closer where I can see them.
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Re: combat needs help

Post by Blue Note »

At some point I believe these topics are headed for some sort of poll among the RCCA members...be it class selection, rules and scoring, etc. Many of us have invested in time and equipment that may make us biased to one class or anther and "game" preferences of speed versus damage control is all over the place. I think we need to really think about what we want RC Combat to be...a reflex game, a pursuit and strategy game, a team sport...heck whatever sounds fun to the masses. Once we get a grasp on that, redesign the classes and rules to fit our mold while allowing lots of room for individuality and variety... despite what the AMA is currently endorsing. They will eventually adopt whatever becomes popular. Can we please everybody? No way. However, it does sound like we all pretty well agree that part of the problem stems from excessive plane damage and lack of time, desire or ability to build enough planes to keep up with the sport. We know speed and weight both increase damage...so the answer to this part of the dilemma is rather obvious. Ultimately, I think we are going to reach down to the roots to pull this one out... I'll help how I can.
Chris Gunter
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Re: combat needs help

Post by Bob Leone »

To many rules. I have herd this gripe to many times. I like the idea of a slow class, a fast class and a scale class. Keep it simple.

I think the the best place to get new blood is to show folks, go to fun flys with a couple of buddies and ask to demonstrate what we do. Then go with a bunch of different designs and hopefully someone will get the bug.

The problem then is keeping them in for the first 6 to 8 months when for most pilots they go threw a bunch of equipment.
Buttercup
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Dr. Kamakaze
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Re: combat needs help

Post by Dr. Kamakaze »

I think that there will be active cells in certain areas where combat gets flown based on interest. In WI we do not fly open B at any of our local contests. Gnats are what I cut my teeth on in combat with Bill Geipel and are the cheapest, quickest build, sturdiest, easiest planes to start with. We fly SSC, limited B, and Gnats mainly around here right now and although we have lost some over the years, we are picking up new members as of late through club combat initially. Participation in our hobby as a whole has decreased, it has not just affected RC combat. Look back in Model Aviation at the old time pictures of what the NATS once were in their glory days...a hangar full of kids working on their models. That was a different time.

Although I am happy with things as they are now, I think an e-class may be a good thing if done right but I'm a slimer and enjoy the glow engines more. Trying to combine and lump everything into one class is not the answer...pick the class or classes you enjoy flying and fly them, most of all have FUN doing it. If the RCCA really wants to find out how to attract new members, then we need to stop talking among ourselves and talk to our target audience. I would propose we formulate a short questionnaire that the RCCA members could take to our local club meetings, publish in our local club newsletters, and post on RC Universe, RC Groups, etc. and get the feedback from the very people we are trying to attract. We then pool that info and have fairly impartial and tangible information with which to start kicking around some real ideas to try to get the very people we are trying to get hooked on RC combat flying with us. Our own ideas of why people aren't flying combat may not even be the real reasons keeping people away. I personally have 3 clubs from which I could try to get feedback from a survey should the RCCA officers decide to pursue that, the president of one of my local clubs just purchased a "Willy Wing"...we should have a new member there next year!

Happy Thanksgiving

Respectfully submitted,
Andy Runte aka "Dr. Kamakaze"
-TEAM KAMAKAZE-
RCCA #876
AMA #273119
Andy "Dr. Kamakaze" Runte
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Re: combat needs help

Post by boiler »

CD's have worked to get locals into combat and draw from a distance. You have to work this right to grow combat. First to get new pilots, you need 5-6 round maximums since they will become discouraged if they lose their planes before the meet ends. Some have had 30 rounds in 2 days to draw from a distance and that is tasking even for us that have plenty of ships. Personally I will travel a distance to fly more than most since I am retired and don't have to work around that kind of schedule. I hold my meet Memorial Day weekend so working pilots can fit into their schedule better. I do lose some that have family traditional events that weekend. I think 12 rounds in a day is about what can be expected flying two classes. One for new pilots and one for seasoned. I offer SSC and 2948 on day one and Gnat and Limited B on the second day. Although a few may fly all 4 events, new pilots may just fly one event or fly SSC & Gnat or SSC and Limited B. Your new pilots will not travel very far and will not have many planes. There is a large pool of potential pilots that will not fly nitro PERIOD. We are shooting ourselves in the foot if we expect to draw these pilots without a non intimidating electric class.
Bob (Longhaul) Loescher
rcca# 621 RC Combat Geezer
Bring those planes in closer where I can see them.
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Re: combat needs help

Post by Hat Trick »

The problems have been the same since combat first started. Keep the rule simple and every few months someone figures out a way to get better performance or more power and then everyone had better get on the bandwagon ie build a new fleet, get new motors or not be competative. Make a lot of rules to keep performance even and or be more surviveable and you get complaints about to many rules - performance to low or to high etc.
I've seen what little restriction rules get you in Russia. Super fast high performance planes that most pilots probably can barely keep in the air. They need to be super light to be competative so they don't last long. Fun for those who can handle the planes and can afford it but cuts a lot of pilots out. New pilots in the hobby can't seem to grasp this but it was a reality in combat since the beginning. I know because it's how I did well in the beginning of combat. Be one step ahead on the power - performance and or survivability curve and you have a huge advantage.
Mike Fredricks
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Lou Melancon
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Re: combat needs help

Post by Lou Melancon »

You continuously need new participants to replace those who drop out. The sport has to cause RC model eras to want to participate.

If the sport draws people to it they will investigate it and decide what event to participate in. Combat development, evolution and refinement has been practically non existent compared to what it was in its early years. Evolution has reached its maximum development for the current rules.

Will changing rules, creating new classes, or embracing electric cause combat participation to grow? Maybe, but will it be enough to sustain or grow the sport. You need new participants. Is combat attractive enough to draw them in.

At it greatest popularity combat was predominantly scale. Do folks today look at combat planes and say to themselves, "I really want one of those?"

Are ugly airplanes turning people off from the sport? Tell me truthfully what event in RC modeling has thrived and grown with ugly planes?

Focus on how you can attract new blood rather than re-beating the same dead horses of rules, classes, glow versus electric, etc.
Lou Melancon
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Re: combat needs help

Post by Quickdraw »

We need to ask ourself what attracted me to rc combat and why do I continue to fly rc combat. I bet that there are common answers amoung us. When I was bitten by the bug I wasn't encouraged or discourged by the rules. I found out what the were, built my planes and flew accordingly (with alot of help from the RCCA forums and it's members).

RCCA is AMA's combat SIG. The AMA rule book events were developed by the RCCA submitted and accepted by the AMA.

RCCA is a brand. Our product is combat. Our menu, as of now is 2610, 2948, SSC, Open B, limited B and Gnat. The compalaints I hear about too many rules come from pilots who fly "club" combat.

As far as electric verses nitro, we had several flyers using electric in SSC and 2948. Their planes were competitive with nitro equipped planes. A few others went from nitro to electric back to ntiro because of durability and surviabilty.

On every flight line at rc fields you will see great looking planes, average looking planes and ugly planes. The same is true at combat contest. I can see a reason to have nice looking planes for demos.
David E. Ebers Sr.
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Re: combat needs help

Post by Bruce B »

Here are my ideas. I like the idea of a slow, fast, and scale class. The scale class is probably more relate able to most outsiders just because they can say that's a nice looking corsair, or mustang, etc. With the other classes it's more like what in the world have you got going on here. Maybe it's intimidating to them because they think it need to look more like what they think an airplane should look like.
Make the slow class a .15 powered 3 lb MAX. 8x3 prop and no rpm limit. Just show up with stock muffler an carb. Kinda mix ssc and open a. There are a few guys running la motors that probably won't like that though.
Make the fast class a mix of lim b and open b. Again with a max weight of say 3.5 lbs. Spec prop and stock muffler. No rpm limit. Police these classes with a price rule and the claim rule to keep the mega hi dollar motors out. The max weight will help limit damage by making the planes a little lighter, but still sufficient room to add armor for survivability.
If you had never seen combat before and show up at the field to sw everyone that's competing has 3-4 planes sitting there ready to go it could be intimidating as well. You think man, I have to have that many planes to make it through a day? And that's one class... These guys fly four classes..... They must have a lot of money tied up in all those planes.... I could never have that many planes ready to fly. Well, that is a truth. What does it cost you to build a plane from start to finish? Assuming you (the new pilot)have a transmitter and the field equipment already. $150-200 now how many planes do you need to make it through a day? Unfortunately we all have to pay to play but it can be intimidating to think about building a fleet from scratch.
We try to go out of our way at our contests to talk to everyone that shows up at the field on any given contest day. We try to make them feel welcome and get them involved by asking them to judge or give them a tour of the pits between rounds. Seems to get people interested, but then what. Where can they go to get kits? Kit makers are getting scarce even.
I don't feel like there are too many rules, but that maybe we should look at the rules and make some amendments to make it easier to build and compete. Just let the new guy build his plane without having to worry about weight,slowing the engine down, etc.
Combine a new guy with a new but heavily built ssc plane. De tunes the motor to get down that 1000 rpm to be legal. Then launch it into the famous 25-40 mph Texas crosswind. Usually doesn't end up good and now his new plane is crashed and the other guys are having fun without him. Very discouraging.
We need to promote combat as a group. Keep our discussions polite and make decisions based on bettering the sport. Other websites,online classifieds,etc. go to a club in your area and fly a couple of rounds. Take extra planes and let them get a cut or two off of you. You never know where the next combat pilot will come from.
Bruce Blevins
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Re: combat needs help

Post by Hat Trick »

Having a max weight only in any class will drive everyone to super light and easily destroyed planes to win. Not a good way to retain pilots who soon burn out with all the builing and repairs required. A minimum weight that is high enough to allow decent armor makes the planes much more survivable and the performance is pretty even.
Mike Fredricks
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Re: combat needs help

Post by Bruce B »

I can see your point about the max weight. But isn't the max weight in open b supposed to be there to limit damage?
Bruce Blevins
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Re: combat needs help

Post by Hat Trick »

I think the thought then was to limit damage to someone who got hit by a plane. I don't think the max weight served any purpose at all really. You never saw any planes near the max that were competative. In open it's all about wing loading and horsepower.
Mike Fredricks
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