Uniting all WW II 1/12 scale fighter classes !?


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draftman1
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Post by draftman1 »

Trying to level the playing field with different engine sizes just wont work around here. its just too many rules and stuff. All of those engine classes would really make guys not want to fly it at all. Like Lou said, its more of a participation thing than anything. its hard enough just to get people to try any combat, open or scale. When our club does fun combat I bring planes for people to try, fully equiped. I get a taker or two but thats about it.
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lightning
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Post by lightning »

Lou, perhaps a different perspective, but I see the demise of Scale as a fallout from diluting the Class into 2610 and 2548. Perhaps you will recall a discussion we had a few years ago when I was suggesting we need ONE Scale class which could perhaps be a blend of the two.
My personal feeling is that two classes created a need for an even larger fleet; not many aircraft met the criteria of both. I had already decided I would no longer fly 2610 as a result, and that was before I knew of the decision to not fly any 2610 at the 2009 NATS.
Adding to the ammunition for that decision was the AMA rule change (courtesy of one of our District reps!) that no longer allowed me to fly planes in a "trainer" color scheme, deliberately chosen for my aging eyes!
Will I fly 2548 this year? Not sure yet as I have a psychological difficulty with building planes that will probably only fly at the NATS - there are no other 2548 events held within reasonable distance of home.
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boiler
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Post by boiler »

Keith, I plan to have 2548 at my meet the last weekend in May. I tried it last year but we didn't have enough pilots so we flew extra SSC and limited B.
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Post by gsjames »

This will be an opinionated, aggressive letter, so if you have thin skin, Don't read it!




You've been warned...






I have always been amused by those who think that flying semi-scale model airplanes chasing each other around in a fur ball has ANYTHING at all in common with real air-to-air combat. The idea of "living the fantasy" of being a WWII fighter pilot is almost pathetic. Face it, we are grown men, and a few youngsters, who like to play with TOY airplanes! You are NOT replicating what it was like over the skies of Europe or the Pacific. GET OVER IT. You aren't a WWII fighter pilot and you never will be.

Have you ever noticed that those of us who have actually flown REAL air-to-air combat in REAL military airplanes tend to focus on the NON-scale events and don't often mess with the "scale" events. I'm not sure who else in the RCCA, other than myself, is a real former fighter pilot (except Evan) but speaking strictly for myself (USN A-4's, A-7's, F-4's and F-14's and over 425 traps)the scale events are a DISTANT second in level of interest to the non-scale events.

It has been CONCLUSIVELY shown through hundreds of contests, that the number of cuts achieved in model airplane "combat" is directly related to the span of the model (for any specific level of pilot skill) and that FIXED SCALE rules such as the original AMA rules and the 2610 rules are fatally flawed in that they favor non "front line" aircraft that had long spans. The current 2548 rules, developed over a period of years by conscientious modelers, has pretty much addressed and solved all the deficiencies in the earlier rules. You can now build SCALE airplanes to your hearts content, and the only difference is that the specific scale factor is the variable rather than the wing span. With the 2548 rules you can build a 1/12th scale airplane of front line WWII fighters and compete with it if you want as long as the wing span doesn't exceed 48" and that individual components of the airplane don't deviate from that scale factor. The 2548 rules tend to equalize the variations in the differences in the wingspan of the original airplanes and put the front line fighters on an equal footing with the ODD BALLS that tended to take over 2610. Of course, there are ALWAYS whiners and there always will be.

Having flown control line combat for over 35 years, directed CL Combat at the NATS and having avoided competing in RC Combat until this year, because of the silly AMA scale rules, it it my not-so-humble opinion that it is FORTUNATE that 2548 is NOT an official AMA event and it's even MORE FORTUNATE that we don't have an international governing body, like the FAI, dictating the rules. The international version of Control Line Combat (F2d) has some of the most screwed up rules you have ever seen in your life and it's the direct result of having a international governing body (the FAI) calling the shots.

It's improbable that any significant number of North American RC Combat fliers will ever venture across the pond to fly scale RC Combat in Europe and it's equally improbable that any significant number of European RC combat fliers will drift this way. If any do go one way or the other, just build models and fly according to the host country's rules.

I started with SSC this year because it looks like the most fun for the money and it has proved to be exactly that, A HECK OF A LOT OF FUN FOR VERY LITTLE TIME AND MONEY. However, I have decided to ADD 2548 to the events that I fly next year because I have closely watched Ed Kettler and the others fly the event at our local contests and have found that it is a reasonable event with reasonable rules that tends to reward the best pilots rather than someone with a gimmick.

Let each country/group/region do things their own way, in the way that best suits their unique approach to the hobby and we'll each enjoy our hobby in the way that suits us best without the hindrance of trying to please everyone all the time. DON'T TRY TO UNIFY OR "RE-UNITE" THE RULES!!! Trying to please everyone all the time is the surest road to having a screwed up mess.
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Post by Lou Melancon »

Amen
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog »

I second Lou.

If it works dont fix it
wayno
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Post by wayno »

I think all of the concern about engine size, scale appearance and true likeness to any full size combat are well addressed in the above posts. Lou's comment about our planes being the tools of our event rings very true to me. I fly 2610 because I like to build fast ships and chase other peoples planes around. I am a former pylon racer and my aircraft fly much more like racers than any WW2 plane. I see the sun as much more of a safety concern than the speed of the planes. I am there to cut every ribbon possible in the amount of time alotted. Until every pilot has the same depth perception, eyesight, preparation and piloting skill there will always be some one who has an advantage. Making the plane the sole concern of equality will not level the playing field. I take great pride in showing up with well built and well prepared equipment.I have a table in front of my TV and find that putting in a couple of hours 3 or 4 nights a week gives me plenty of ships for a season of 30 rounds or so. We don't for the most part fly foamies because part of flying combat is showing off our nice ships. I gladly accept the streamers of all comers, whatever the plane looks like. My problem with 2548 is that most of the planes are anything but scale looking unless there is some country that flew airplanes made of tape. I tend to gravitate to activities that are not drowning in rules. I also have seen nothing about any injuries or damage related to the speed of our planes. I try not to live in the land of "what if?".I do agree that flying planes of different wingspans and speeds makes it more difficult, and having all the planes the same size and speed would make it easier, but I don't fly 2610 because it is easy. I am sure it takes a lot less time and effort to build foamies as well. I don't build nice ships because it is easy. I started flying combat when the Billings meet had 50 pilots with about 200 planes. I remember walking through the pits and marvelling at all the great looking ships. Not one tape job in the lot. I am going to do my best to keep that memory alive. 2548 looks like something Obama would come up with.

Wayne Mayo
RCCA #880
Cross Check

Post by Cross Check »

Hi Gary,
Very well said. I hope everyone else read your words...

Any 'Open' Combat here in Canada is very well spread out over 3000miles, club to club and basicly 'one design/engine' combat. There is no interest in 'OPEN' here. Why any pilot needs an aeroplane/powerplant advantage over another pilot, seems 'unsportsmanlike' to us.
This is my opinion...from what I know...

Why Anyone Wants to fly (1/12th)Scale Fighter Combat seems to be a "Worldwide/Facination/ Passion".
And a mystery/misery why.
And building one/several to compete locally, is insane.(technicaly!)
Trying to CD/organize a Match is Lunacy. (Try picking a date! )
And the weather and...
You think flying in a Match is Challenging !
Try being a CD ! ! !

Actually, being able to fly, and CD is the most FUN !

And a Challenge, only your local friends/pilots will help you with...

And visiting Pilots will put on the next Match...

And so on and so on...Which is growing combat here...

Our Maac Scale Combat rules are getting closer to 2548. We are 4in span short.
(Are we allowed in, if within RPMs?)

I have said it before, and have no problem saying again...

The 2548 rules are Great. If you do not think so...Read the 2548 rules again.

The planes here are all coro. An extra 4in span will get us up to min. weight!

We will wait till 2548 is official, before renting a bus and blowing all of you away at the US Nats...
(And we will teach Open flyers Pursuit, and how to keep streamers ! )

I am drunk, It is soon the New Year, and I wish everyone the best of R/C Combat.

Thank you Timo for the Aceslink. Invite us here: http://www.rccanada.ca/rccforum/forumdisplay.php?f=114 to fly with you at the WorldGames.

I am not sure you would like our coro planes against your balsa paper....

I'm getting really drunk today,

I'll be sober to drive and fly New Years Day...

Flying R/C Combat is the most fun you can have with a model airplane...

Take care,
Have fun,
Dave'crosscheck'Fallowfield
Maac 6437
Unabashed Combat Team
topspeed
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Post by topspeed »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by gsjames</i>
<br />
You've been warned...






I have always been amused by those who think that flying semi-scale model airplanes chasing each other around in a fur ball has ANYTHING at all in common with real air-to-air combat. The idea of "living the fantasy" of being a WWII fighter pilot is almost pathetic. Face it, we are grown men, and a few youngsters, who like to play with TOY airplanes! You are NOT replicating what it was like over the skies of Europe or the Pacific. GET OVER IT. You aren't a WWII fighter pilot and you never will be.

Have you ever noticed that those of us who have actually flown REAL air-to-air combat in REAL military airplanes tend to focus on the NON-scale events and don't often mess with the "scale" events. I'm not sure who else in the RCCA, other than myself, is a real former fighter pilot (except Evan) but speaking strictly for myself (USN A-4's, A-7's, F-4's and F-14's and over 425 traps)the scale events are a DISTANT second in level of interest to the non-scale events.

------------snip-------------

Let each country/group/region do things their own way, in the way that best suits their unique approach to the hobby and we'll each enjoy our hobby in the way that suits us best without the hindrance of trying to please everyone all the time. DON'T TRY TO UNIFY OR "RE-UNITE" THE RULES!!! Trying to please everyone all the time is the surest road to having a screwed up mess.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Gary and all reading,

I have pretty thin skin and pretty much knew ( or I was afraid of ) what I was up against here. It was going to be like a reunion of the families in Michael Corleone episode in the Godfather.

First of all, I am not demanding any ...I repeat any scalelikenes from the model when it comes to looks of the kite ( I mentioned this in several occassion before )but the main measures of the intented models should be within 5% of the original...and if it has almost insane power to weight ratio and small size ( like me 109 K-4 and LA-7 )it should meet some standards.

I find the Fairey Fulmar beating the original Bearcat powerrating 4x as gross. Therefore I allowed to myself to come up with a bigger engine for Mustang, FW-190 D ( A as well ), Bearcat etc. and limiting the hp:s of the ground attack AC and light bombers to get some scalelikeness HERE. I see in USA and CANADA this problem is already taken care off.

Like I said I have flown few Me-109s and P-51Ds in 1/12 scale Air Combat events and .10 was plenty for a smallish G-2 and .15 more so in a G-6. The .15 in Mustang was underpowered definitely..and still is ( unless it is very lite Mustang model and C-VA or tuned pipe MVVS on the nose of the plane ).

To keep it cheap and inexpensive the models need to be simple and wooden plane cannot be made cheaply in 1/12 scale if it is not simplified a lot.

So I would aim to make it funtional with the engine fueltank and receiver and 3 servos...to me that means slimming the fuses maybe even 40%. The countour from above and side would still look somewhat original.

I am not allowed to compete with that kinda REAL COMBAT KITE. I say real because it is made intentionally competetive and has only touch of the originals looks really ( because I dont have P&W with 2100 hp available in 1/12 scale ).

I have a way to build 3 1/12 scale combat planes in less time than 3 foamies with less weight and fuss + less need for a big expensive engine.

I hope I made myself slightly clearer now.

Bottom line is the kites have to be easy to make and more models should be made to compete with even terms and at least trying to promote some other aspect than the originals large size.

The rules propositions were just tools trying to solve the knot..bringing the original plane hp:s into picture was one of them.


See Ya later and Happy NEW YAER 2009 !
THend
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Post by THend »

2610 rules change as of 2009. Thank you 2548.

Paint the bottom of your plane bright orange if you want for safety sake, it's been a long accepted norm in scale.

It shouldn't be about what class of scale combat you fly... It should be whether you are having fun flying the scale class you fly.

I think all the bases are now covered.

[:D]
draftman1
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Post by draftman1 »

Amen TH
Cross Check

Post by Cross Check »

Hi THend,

Terry,
It was some model airplane mag articles you were part of, We saw up here that got us started thinking scale combat is too cool not to be part of.
Way back, in the previous Century, I think...

By the time 2105(Aces) got up here it was 2610. I gave away my (OS.15FP)HOB 1/12th scale P-51 partially assembled kit/guts to my scale building friend.

He finnished(Pun intended Jukka !) it off almost 10yrs later complete with cockpit details/etc. with the implicit instructions to fly the bags off it in R/C Combat.(WooHoo!)

Well, It is still only 2.25lbs, flys Great, although at 3/4 the performance of our Maac Scale (coro)WW2s...
Do you think anyone can hit it? WooHoo ! No kidding, I need to put streamers on the wingtips just to try and see the silver covering in the sky.
Everyone here knows it is a 'Woody' and will 'Blow Up Real Good' and every Heat it goes up, drives the Spectators Wild !

My point is... I am only an average Pilot here. And I 'go with the flow' here.

My claim to Fame here is I have never been in First Place.
And I am working on never getting a Last Place !

Did I mention R/C Combat is the most fun you can have with a model airplane?

Take care,
Have fun,
Dave'crosscheck'Fallowfield
Maac 6437
Unabashed Combat Team
topspeed
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Post by topspeed »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cross Check</i>
<br />Hi THend,

Terry,
It was some model airplane mag articles you were part of, We saw up here that got us started thinking scale combat is too cool not to be part of.
Way back, in the previous Century, I think...

By the time 2105(Aces) got up here it was 2610. I gave away my (OS.15FP)HOB 1/12th scale P-51 partially assembled kit/guts to my scale building friend.

He finnished(Pun intended Jukka !) it off almost 10yrs later complete with cockpit details/etc. with the implicit instructions to fly the bags off it in R/C Combat.(WooHoo!)

Did I mention R/C Combat is the most fun you can have with a model airplane?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I know this feeling..many here has same experiences..with HoB Spit and Mustangs. They went like mad with .15s. Very complicated to build indeed.

I really may have to put up a class of my own with "tuned" 2610 rules..that sounds very good dudes..now after you ( USA and CANADA ) stand as a one man why can't we...Timo..do you hear this ?

I went cross country skiing 22 km today..cleared my mind a bit.

rgds,

Juke
Lou Melancon
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Post by Lou Melancon »

I just love these scale discussions, pages of posts, much spirit, lots of good theories, but it eventually it peters out and no one builds or flies scale. Is it only me who sees something wrong with this picture?

I'll make a challenge to all who are posting here and a promise. If each one of you will build three competitive AMA rules Scale planes (including me) I will host a scale only contest at one of the finest flying fields in the Southeast United States in May. We'll get AMA Magazine coverage, forum coverage, and an outstanding set of prizes and merchandise for all participants. I am not kidding it will be the most publicized and richest RC Combat contest ever.

You pick your plane, talk it up and show us your progress photos as you build it, tell us all why it will be a world beater and don't be shy about bragging about how well you will do. Let's do something instead of just talking about it.

There are kits available from Ed, Terry, Mike Fredricks, Chris Handegard, Tower, and others. OS .25FXs are still available as are Magnums, and other brands.

Prices on travel have come down, and it is even affordable for Canadians, Europeans, and Californians to get here and fly. You can ship your planes here in advance and we will have fuel and pit tools ready for you when you get here.

Now with that challenge I wonder if this thread will continue?
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Post by THend »

Mix yourself a beverage, relax and enjoy. I have to drive home from work and then do the same.

I absolutely agree Lou. Out here, we had it good...died, re-kindled it a bit...died....trying to get it going again... There was a time when scale was doing very well. Hmmm...what do we think happened?

It is the scale combat yo-yo-athon of the last 6 years... or so.

They are too fast..
They are too ugly...
They are not frontline fighters of WWII...
The playing field is not level....
There is too much carnage...
There is a furball...
There is no pursuit...
There are too many mid-airs...
The paint schemes are way off...
The scale deviation allowance is out of control....
Oh...the prototypes...don't forget the prototypes...

Tell you what boys and girls...

I'd gladly live with all of that and go back to the good ole days when we had 20+ scale pilots all competing at one time at Palomar, and read of other events with plenty of scale pilots. I'd live with all that horror in the blink of an eye, because you knew there were other guys out there getting ready, and scale combat is and was where it REALLY is at. Where has everyone gone.... we lost the mojo..

So now we have: in order from above..

Planes that are still too fast for some...to slow for others..
Planes that look like watermelons from the "it looks ugly crowd"[:0]
The Skyraider is about to be allowed into 2548...the twin Mustang already is?? I am baffled at that logic.. but I guess it is cool[B)]
The playing field is "more level"... 48 inch wingspan for all! [:D]
There will always be too much carnage... get over it.
There is still a furball even at 2548 speeds, it just cycles now..get speed dive back in!
There has always been pursuit, you may just stink at it....[:p]
There will always be too many mid-airs, read some of the 2548 reviews!
Oddly, I find more flying watermelons these days than in the past. Don't ya love tape stripes!
Yup, we moved the ME109 wing to make it balance..but we never used plank wings on a Ta152..[;)] we know who did..
Oh my God! the prototypes did as much in WWII as the Skyraider and the twin Mustang... but somehow "they" are "OK" and qualify as highly recognizable front line fighters..[?] We all rationalize I guess [:I]

Have WE really gotten anywhere? What is better?

Oh,,, 5 guys in Texas are flying scale, 3 in Florida, if we are lucky 3 in Southern California, and a handful in Utah... my theory is when in Rome..fly what class they are flying.

All of this was well worth it wasn't it? I am floored that rulebook 2610 isn't even getting a stage at the Nats... not that I can come, but I am pretty darn surprised.

I am pushing for AMA rulebook 2610 to be flown out here. The rules changes about to take place should help. I have no idea of how many or who I can get to join in. Maybe nobody...

I'll build it...maybe they will come.


Fly what you want, fly hard and laugh alot.

Peace out my Brothers, and I wish all of you a great New Year.

(edited to remove ref to church)
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