RCC-09-7 – Scale maximum wingspan of 48â€

Forum for AMA Contest Board rules change proposal discussion

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montague
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Post by montague »

In addtion, by your logic, no one would ever build anything anytime that was ever even close to scale. What stops guys from already making the fuse or other parts of the plane out of scale? It's not like 1/12th and the +/-10% thing actually somehow works better than the proposed wording. Guys who want to cheat on the outlines will cheat no matter what. They already do, and it won't get worse with slightly different scaling factor.
Bobwrc
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:56 pm

Post by Bobwrc »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by montague</i>
<br />In addtion, by your logic, no one would ever build anything anytime that was ever even close to scale. What stops guys from already making the fuse or other parts of the plane out of scale? It's not like 1/12th and the +/-10% thing actually somehow works better than the proposed wording. Guys who want to cheat on the outlines will cheat no matter what. They already do, and it won't get worse with slightly different scaling factor.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yep; I fly, but not 2548! In fact, we flew against each other a few years back at the 2610 competition in Bloomfield, CT.
Your most recent posts are confusing to me. In the one prior to the one above; you said that <b>"Those planes are scaled to 48", and you DO NOT see fuses done like you're suggesting",</b> yet in the post above, you say <b>"Guys who want to cheat on the outlines will cheat no matter what. They already do."</b>
Either they're cheating or they're not. which is it? Is 2548 in some way magically blessed with having no scale deviation cheaters?
Granted, most CDs turn a "blind eye" to this sort of cheating rather than to risk losing a contest entrant, and this just compounds what has been an on-going problem.
Anyone who has competed somewhat regularly in RC scale combat, be it 2105, 2610, and I suspect, even in 2548; has seen airplanes being used that are well beyond the established scale deviation limits, but have you ever seen anyone disqualified for doing so?
I think not!
The only reason that 2548 came into existence was because some people were unhappy that most of the more well known fighter aircraft types were getting beat regularly by the lesser known high altitude fighter types that had large, high aspect ratio, wings, and consequently; flew better!
Trying to create an event where all, or at least most, of the WWII fighter types will be relatively competitive, while still retaining a reasonable degree of scale fidelity, is an impossibility.
I urge all of you who haven't done so, to take a few minutes, and scale up proportionately; any of the WWII fighters that had relatively short wingspans, or any of the radial engined powered types, to utilize a 48" wing.
I think that you'll be quite surprised how large the fuselage cross sectional area, spinner, or cowl on the radial engine types, becomes!
Well intended as Proposal RCCX-09-7 may be; if eventually accepted, it may result in a few aircraft such as the P-51 Mustang becoming more competitive.
On the down side, it will also serve to encourage those who already tend to cheat (regarding scale fidelity) and get away with it; to do so more flagrantly.
Does the positive aspect of this proposal outweigh the negative?
I sure don't think so!
montague
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Post by montague »

Thing is, 2610 is basically dead. Yeah, we flew against each other in CT. But those contests are long dead. I wish I could come back up there to fly some more, but where did everyone go?

Yes, people can cheat on the outlines in all scale classes. And yes, CDs do often turn a blind eye. And there is nothing that can really be done about it.

My point is that going to 48" doesn't make that any worse, and can make it better.

We HAVE built planes to 48". Zeros fly quite well, and are no slower than Mustangs and Hurricanes at that scale. Even the Hellcats I've seen flew well, with fuse drag not being a problem at all. Yes, the fuses are big, but that doesn't hurt performance to a noticeable degree at all. We've done it, we've flown it, we've shown it to be not a problem. There's proof, while you have nothing but your conjecture, nothing but guesswork.

Anyway, the idea to move to 48" isn't about slowing down cheating.

It's about getting guys to fly combat. It's about making planes that kit companies can sell competitive. Great Planes is now selling 4 wood kits that are 2610 legal because they also work as sport planes, espeically eletric. There are TONS of 48" eletrics hitting the shelves.

If we have a combat class where 48" planes are competitive, it allows guys to fight on an even footing with planes they like, and it allows the kit companies to make dual-use kits that sell enough to make it worth keeping them in production.

In 2610 currently, the only thing that can win an event these days is something like a Fulmar, Kate, Skyraider, or Firebrand. The days when you could win with something small like a Mustang are long gone.

We're trying to bring them back.
Bobwrc
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:56 pm

Post by Bobwrc »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by montague</i>
<br />Thing is, 2610 is basically dead. Yeah, we flew against each other in CT. But those contests are long dead. I wish I could come back up there to fly some more, but where did everyone go?

Yes, people can cheat on the outlines in all scale classes. And yes, CDs do often turn a blind eye. And there is nothing that can really be done about it.

My point is that going to 48" doesn't make that any worse, and can make it better.

We HAVE built planes to 48". Zeros fly quite well, and are no slower than Mustangs and Hurricanes at that scale. Even the Hellcats I've seen flew well, with fuse drag not being a problem at all. Yes, the fuses are big, but that doesn't hurt performance to a noticeable degree at all. We've done it, we've flown it, we've shown it to be not a problem. There's proof, while you have nothing but your conjecture, nothing but guesswork.

Anyway, the idea to move to 48" isn't about slowing down cheating.
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It's about getting guys to fly combat. It's about making planes that kit companies can sell competitive. Great Planes is now selling 4 wood kits that are 2610 legal because they also work as sport planes, espeically eletric. There are TONS of 48" eletrics hitting the shelves.

If we have a combat class where 48" planes are competitive, it allows guys to fight on an even footing with planes they like, and it allows the kit companies to make dual-use kits that sell enough to make it worth keeping them in production. </b> </font id="red">

In 2610 currently, the only thing that can win an event these days is something like a Fulmar, Kate, Skyraider, or Firebrand. The days when you could win with something small like a Mustang are long gone.

We're trying to bring them back.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

C'mon Kirk, be realistic! The Great Planes ARF kits that you're referring to aren't well suited for use in RC scale combat, especially by a newcomer.
Advising anyone to spend $180 for a frail, built-up construction airplane, that will be little more than a "streamer tug", and soon to be reduced to confetti because it cannot withstand even a glancing type minor mid-air; is like playing a dirty trick on them!
Also; what does your term; "TONS of kits" represent in actual numbers of different 48" wingspan kits?
Care to name a hundred or so?
If the 48" wingspan rule; as used in the 2548 event, is the cure for what ails 2610; why are only 22 people (RCCA 2007 point standings) flying 2548, Nationally?
Seems to me, that <u>Scale RC combat, in general</u>, is in serious trouble, not just 2610, and that incorporating the 48" wingspan concept into 2610, is an ill advised concept.
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