Beyond 2004

This is the thread to aid in development of new ideas and classes. Post working rules and gather feedback!

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Lou Melancon
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Beyond 2004

Post by Lou Melancon »

On another thread questions were asked about which classes will be grow and preserve the future of RC Combat. Here are Mark Versprille's comments and questions:

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Lou, I don't understand your statement, "Depending on what time period you want to use to project growth or shrinkage...". Projecting membership growth or shrinkage accurately would require a multi-dimensional market analysis. Has such a study been done? I think it boils down to how many active paid up members did we have then, and how many do we have now? What was the actual growth rate in the two years prior to the introduction of SSC and what has been the growth rate from 02 to 04? Are more clubs flying RCCA combat now than before?

The stats you are presenting aren't specific enough to inform what does and does not work at growing the RCCA. If ninteen people signed up in the two year period and twenty-three others haven't paid their dues (even though their names are still kicking around) means something about the attractiveness of RCCA in general. If there were 32 contests in twelve states in 2002, then 37 contests in nine states in 2004 it means something. Is the RCCA becoming more national or more regional? Or is it a wash, just the same but in different places?

For me it hasn't been better. It doesn't feel like the RCCA is becoming more national to me.

The stats you are giving reflect the personal magnetism and energy expenditure of those involved in promoting SSC as much as the inherent or perceived value of the class itself. As for dealing with the AMA, what's that mean?

I think Jimbo & BC are promoting a class of combat that is better than for the RCCA than SSC. I think it will have much longer legs.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Mark,
You have covered a lot of ground. I will try to answer your questions.

No we have not done a multi-dimensional marketing analysis. During the last twelve months the membership has climbed as high as 300 and been lower than 250. I would guess that our membership growth is virtually flat. For every member we lose we pick up another. My sense is that there is an increase in combat participation in the Southeast, Tx/OK/Ks, and Southwest and a shrinkage in other parts of the country. I do not have statistical data to prove it, and the feeling is only based on looking at the number of contests being flown and who has entered scores into the NPS system.

I think you give me and the others from the beginning of SSC too much credit for its growth and the event itself too little. The event, its satisfaction, and its appeal is what is fueling its growth. Not a group of promoters. Once the SSC events started being scheduled it took off of its own accord. My sense is that areas of the country that have tried it have had more growth success than other areas that haven't.

I think that Jimbo and Travis have done an exceptionally good job at developing discussions, defining rules, and moving towards establishing a Limited B class. Ed Kettler, likewise has put the time effort and enthusiasm into 2548. Once the events make it to Provisional Stats we will see what happens. Our hobby really resembles that statement "build it and they will come". If it (the class) is what people really want they will come.

I am somewhat surprised by your negative statements. The huge growth, interest and enthusiasm for SSC in many parts of the country should excite you, yet you resent it. Why? I have been to all the big contests featuring Open B and SSC this year: Paris, Havoc, Dixie, the Nats and have watched the number of folks who compete in each class. I sense there are many shifting from B to SSC, some moving from SSC to Open B, and some doing two events who are dropping one to concentrate on the other. That is human nature, and it is also natural selection.

Mark, it is no secret that you have never liked .15 SSC thinking all along it should be .25s. With the discussions of Limited B going on you will get the chance to see if you were right all along. I wish you all the best but I do not think that growth in combat has anything to do with displacement. I think it has to do with fun factor and the time it takes in the shop to maintain a fleet of planes.

Lou Melancon
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Post by Bad Dawg »

First let me answer Lou and then on to beyond 2004 because this is a great idea for a thread and deserves the attention and imput of everyone who wants the RCCA to be a long lasting organization.

Lou,
If I came across as so negative that it was offensive, I appologize[:I]. I mean that. You work too hard on the behalf of the RCCA for anyone to think you have anything but the best of intentions.

You are correct that I never supported starting a new class of combat (particularly one based on .15 engines) because proliferation of classes (particulary ones that require re-equiping) dissapate our energies and make it more difficult to grow RCCA style combat as a National event. It's better to conduct a campaign on a single front if you can.

I think you sell your self short in the success of SSC. If it hadn't been for you, it wouldn't be. You are a leader of some considerable ability, and had you dedicated yourself to slowing down B three years ago instead of SSC, I believe it would have happened.

As for wether I was correct or not about a limited B class three years ago is meaningless now. We will never really know since there is no way to turn back the clock. The momentum I percieved in the RCCA then has been directed toward SSC. There are now three additional classes in provisional or demo status. To me that is spreading ouselves thin.

What is happening with membership and regional realignment may have happened with or with out SSC. As for the shrinkage in NE participation, I personally am at least partialy to blame. I didn't jump on board the SSC movement and as one of the few RCCA spark plugs north and east of Philly that was a real set back for RCCA combat growth. Add to that two other regional spark plugs also fell out for "Real Life" situations land the RCCA was hurt even more.

I want RCCA comabt to grow to a truly NATIONAL organization. These are some of the things I think we need to know to do that. They are in no particular order and I am not going to get long winded in explaining them. I think most everybody who frequents these forums will understand their importnace to the question of what is needed to make the RCCA grow.

1. Plan ahead. Switching around doesn't help us.
2. Define the critical mass of fliers and clubs in a given area needed to keep it going, even through changes.
3. Define the correct type of person as a promoter.
4. Define the type of club membership that successfully establishes a self sustaining combat program.
5. Get an accurate list of the most popular engine sizes in the AMA and cross refference that to AMA mandated combat set backs and field sizes.
6. Find the number of contests the average RCCA member realisticly believes he will fly in a given year.
7. Find out how far the average combat pilot will travel for a small contest (8 or fewer heats), and for a large one ( more than 8 heats). Cross refference this to item #2.
8. Discover how many and what sizes of engines the average combat pilot owns.
9. Find out what is attractive in the RCCA to its members and what turns off the members.

I am sure there are many other facets that need illumination to get a good picture on what is needed to help RCCA style combat grow all over the place. I am suggesting we go at this the way Proctor & Gamble launch a line of laundry detergent. Define the best product we can offer to the most people (it won't be right for everyone but that's the breaks of Naval Air), then create that product and sell it. And stick with selling it. I think what all of us want is multi plane combat, on a fairly frequent basis, that is convienent. That's all.

NUNC AUT NUNQUAM
Mark V.
The perpetual 'newbie'
Lou Melancon
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Post by Lou Melancon »

Mark,
In January 2004 we did a survey of equipment and to an extent participants interest. There were 77 responses. The data was eventually used to provide sponsors with data as to why they should support the North American Championship series.

Here is a link to the survey results:


http://www.surveymonkey.com/Report.asp?U=34873268514

Lou Melancon
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Post by Jimbo »

Who is we? I didn't know anything about that survey. An emial should have been sent to all RCCA members so that we all would have known about it.It would have been more complete.

Limited-B
Try it,you'll like it !
RHorton
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Post by RHorton »

Mark you ask some very interesting question that deserve anwsers. I do believe that if open b was slowed down then SSC would see a fall off in the number that fly it. Case in point, I have a new combat pilot that want to fly open B, I showed him a ssc plane and he liked the speed it flew at, He purshased a well know nation ssc plane and has nothing but trouble flying it, getting the 17,500 rpm's and the launch is really causing him problems. So now he is going to fly a limited B plane this comming weekend, like most who are comming are going to fly a open B with a stock muffler.

Next year there will be only limited B flown in Montana, NPS does nothing for us and I would rather see more pilots flying than a few flying for some trophy that doesn't mean B up here.

We are adding new pilots, I would say about 5 in the region this year, none are joing the RCCA as I have spoken to them about the RCCA, they just don't see any need to join.

All things grow from the roots up. Take care of the roots and the fruit will be there for the pickin. Combat is no different, growth will come from the small local events and giveing the average Joe a reason to be a part of the RCCA. There is no reason for the average combat pilot to join us now, they fly 1,2 or 3 events a year and they arn't interested in a National Points race that they don't have a chance in H_ll in winning or placing well in.

They are a number of reason that need address and we had better address them or the RCCA will just flounder around and never become what it can be. If I didn't feel that way I would have left a long time ago, but it can be with all of us working.[:)]
Lou Melancon
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Post by Lou Melancon »

Jimbo,
I think an invitation to participate in that survey was put in the Soapbox, on the Forum, and in every internet forum's combat section. Sorry you missed it. If you go to the survey and click on the the links you can actually see who voted and how they voted.

Ron,
I have read your comments but don't know what point you are making. You are saying that RCCA offers nothing for your locals and they aren't interested in NPS. Ok then, what is your solution to getting them to join?

I am less concerned about membership than I am about having this web site up and open. It is a great clearinghouse for information and for sharing experiences. If folks come here, but do not join that is ok with me. If they fly combat and do not join that is ok to me, as long as they fly combat.

A lot of folks, me included, join because we want to part of the fraternity that is combat, want to have our voices heard and want to do things to grow combat. But then I belong to several SIGs besides RCCA because I love model airplanes in general, including control line.

If you didn't have to be a member to fly at my club's field we wouldn't have nearly as many members.

I welcome the day when we have electric fliers developing new forms of combat. I can see a day when the brutal northern winters are spent in a high school gymnasium flying combat for 20 minutes at a time with small electrics, scale and open. I also see the day when the slope guys will share with us all the successes they are having with great looking EPP Scale Slope planes.

I want to see us flying more scale and don't care if its cartoon scale, SSC Warbirds, 2548, or 2610 as long as folks are participating. WWII fighters and Scale planes in general are the highest interest articles in magazines (according to the editors and publishers of Model Aviation, the defunct RC Xcellence, RC Report, and RC Modeler) and that tells me we need to constantly look for ways to fly Scale combat. Wouldn't it be great if a class developed around electric WWII fighters like those sold by Hobby Lobby?

I know you've got a lot of opinions, join the rest of us proposing solutions.



Lou Melancon
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Post by Which_way_is_up »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jimbo</i>
<br />Who is we? I didn't know anything about that survey. An emial should have been sent to all RCCA members so that we all would have known about it.It would have been more complete.

Limited-B
Try it,you'll like it !
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Jimbo,

I believe this was conducted during one of your hibernation cycles.[:o)]


<hr noshade size="1">

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Post by Jimbo »

Probably so Roy. I take a forum nap now and then so I don't burn out. It works [:D]

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RHorton
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Post by RHorton »

Lou better yet could you tell me why any one needs the RCCA to fly combat[?] (The key word is NEED) I can't think of one reason myself. I too joined a long time ago to be a part of making combat grow and I was hooked from my first event.

I tried to convey what I thought was wrong but you ignored me, Instead you quit open B and 2610 and started SSC, there wasn't any growth there just lateral movement. I laid out my ideas but there are a lot of other ideas from within the RCCA to stop the slide and turn us around. More and more RCCA members see that and are trying to change it, but it isn't just one reason but rather a broad area of change that needs to take place.

I'll try one more time Lou to help you, Combat growth happens from the bottom up. It's the small events that grows combat, the veteran that takes a new combat pilot under his wing and sees him through the tough learning curve. The guy that spend all winter designing a new plane, and build a fleet and then maybe sharing that with others.

Give the local guy a reason to join and a reason to stay. The NPS and North American Championship offers nothing to the local pilot that flies 2 or 3 combat event a year, that is for the few that fly a 100 rounds or more a year. I'll say this once more the NPS is not doing what is was meant to do, that country is too big and regions have varying amount of combat activity. Each region must be looked at individually, but at the same time we must all be flying the same couple of 3 classes of combat so we stick together. It not easy but it's a must.

I have been in the discussion a lot longer than you have, and to many time I told you what we needed to do, but you went a different path. I wrote two building articles on SSC for you and you didn't use them, At least I can't find them anywhere, correct me if I missed them.

What I am hoping for is that this election will give us some direction no matter who wins. Talking about our problems is the bast way to solve them, so let keep the jabs at one another out of it and find a way to solve the RCCA problems.
Lou Melancon
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Post by Lou Melancon »

To all,
I think about the growth of RC Combat a lot. This weekend I was thinking about RCCA's role and what it is and what it should be.

My personal feeling is that RCCA should focus on the promotion of combat, in all forms. This is not the same as focusing on growing membership. If we do a good job of popularizing combat membership growth will follow along.

After Promotion of combat, I think our second objective should be safety. I don't know if you have seen the report on the horrific accident this past weekend where an out of control Giant Scale bi-plane hit another flier on takeoff. The prop cut through his back into his internal organs and almost severed his leg. I have nightmares of a combat plane causing damage. So I think we need to focus on our own safety at combat meets and the safety of spectators as our second most important function.

I do not disagree that combat grows at the grass roots, or local level. It does, but it also takes a local "sparkplug" to get it going, and those are the folks who are hard to find. If that local sparkplug is also willing to travel then you have at least one more traveling competition flyer.

I think NPS is working and working well. In Texas there is a "Round Robin" series that scores its own contests and awards a trophy at the end of the year to the winners. They did this without RCCA developing a program for them, and others can do it just as well.

The key word is "do something", right, wrong, or otherwise, just do something. Don't talk about it, don't try to convince others to do it, don't wait for others to do it for you, just do it. That is what will cause combat to grow.

Lou Melancon
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Post by thojo »

I truly believe the best way to grow combat is not through the RCCA or contests or NPS, but through grassroots weekly or monthly informal combat at your local clubs. Going to contests and challenging for national NPS points is a daunting proposition for those looking to get into flying combat. Its the informal combat that can truly hook new pilots or those pilots who are tired of burning holes in the sky. Get them interested at a local level and work with them through informal combat where there are no points, no timers, no pressure and the point is just to fly combat and rack up flight time...

If you do that, most of the arguments I've seen lately on these boards would be pointless. Bring up the new pilots flying combat on a regular basis on the local level and there would be no discussions about how to dumb down the RCCA classes we already have in the books...



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RHorton
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Post by RHorton »

<font color="red">Lou wrote "I think NPS is working and working well"</font id="red"> What is it doing? it is not getting the local pilot flying combat, He doesn't need it. The NPS was designed to give combat pilots a reason to join the RCCA and fly as many rounds as possible. I was there when it was born.

<font color="red">Lou wrote"The key word is "do something", right, wrong, or otherwise, just do something. Don't talk about it, don't try to convince others to do it, don't wait for others to do it for you, just do it. That is what will cause combat to grow."</font id="red">
There are a lot of members doing just that, that is what is keeping combat alive, The RCCA is to keep us together, without the RCCA we would all go off doing our own deal. And that is happening right now!


<font color="red">Lou Wrote"My personal feeling is that RCCA should focus on the promotion of combat, in all forms. This is not the same as focusing on growing membership. If we do a good job of popularizing combat membership growth will follow along."</font id="red"> Did we see a growth with the NACS[?] And the NPS hasn't done anything to keep the members we do aquire.

I can't say this enough the RCCA is here to keep us together. The Texas round robin is a great idea and I am sure it is a factor in there large RCCA membership. Why can't the RCCA take that and put it to work in all the other districts? That is what I am perposing with a district NPS. Get combat on a local level, local pilots flying against local pilots, it is combat, I cut you and get 100 points.

Again if the RCCA doesn't keep us together then we will splinter off into our own regions and that is not what the ASDA now RCCA was born to do.

[:)][:)]
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Post by Bert Dodson »

Sunday our combat group brought in another young man to fly with us on a weekly basis and this brings the count up to 13 that are regulars and about 5 more that only show when the mood hits them. Our rules are that there are no rules, no one keeps score and we fly till the last one runs out of fuel.Six of the group are RCCA members and 4 others will go to contests that aren't too far away. One of our teenage pilots went to a couple of contests and told us that it was not for him becaus it was too serious and he really missed the smack talk that we dish out every weekend. We are always trying to recruit newbes but it seems like the ones that are really interested seek us out and they are the ones that tend to stay with it.I can't say exactly what it is that makes us a success but my gut feeling is that we keep it so low key. We fly mainly 15 powered planes bu there are also some guys that don't like them and they fly 25's.Most of our stuff is low-tech and very easy to repair.We have 3 guys in the group that cut wings and that keeps the cost down.The NPS is a good way to tell how you rank against flyers in other parts of the country that you may never fly against and it would be great to be in the top ten but not a disaster if it isn't to be. Lou, you are the one that made Randy and I join RCCA and I don't think I ever said Thank You for all of the hard work you have put into all of this. You have our votes but I would like to know if you were in Cambodia.

Bert Dodson
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Post by Jimbo »

Bert can we go fly our SpecB planes at your weekend combat ? If so, send me directions to your field.

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Post by thojo »

Jimbo,

You guys are always welcome to bring what you fling!

http://www.gulfcoastrc.com



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