Combat SPADs

SPAD Combat designs and discussions
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RH
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Combat SPADs

Post by RH »

I'd like to hear from other SPADers about how your combat SPADs are doing in competition with the foam wing rigs out there.

With all the wrangling about classes that is going on, I keep hearing that SPADs are no longer competitive and can't survive the inevitable contact. These comments always tick me off and scare me as well. I don't want SPADs to get left out when rules are getting drafted defining types of construction.

For those of you that don't know me, and since credibility seems to always become an issue, I have been flying SPADs in combat for three years. I flew open B and SSC at Paris this spring, I have flown 37 rounds of NPS this summer, have won a local open B and an SSC event and placed 3rd once.

Some of you have seen my maple stick fuses and fiberglass rod in the leading edge 2mm coro wings. My fleet consists of 4 birds, 2 for each class. I have flown these 4 all summer through many a midair and they are still ticking. Starting to show some wear but a lot of life left. I have gone wing to wing with the foamers many a time and usually come out on the better end of the stick. My birds are not the fastest in the sky but they match my 50 year old reflexes and I get my share of the cuts.

I am too much of a SPADaholic to fly a foam wing thing and plan on posting some pics of what is working for me. What are some of you other folks doing? Let's not let SPADs get swept under the carpet!

rh
adamdb
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Post by adamdb »

Randy,
You know me, if they outlaw SPADs I will stop flying combat altogether. I don't have the time it takes to build and armor a foamie.

You have seen my flying wings fly. I think they are the equal in performance of anything out there. I don't get many cuts because I ain't that good on the sticks. It has nothing to do with the abilities of the plane.

What works for me is as follows:
Flying wings - 48" span.
Elevon control
RNAF style wings with an aluminum or carbon fiber arrow shaft in the leading edge for armor. This WORKS! You will recall the midair I had at Mile Hi Madness I earlier this year. Destroyed the other plane and I kept on flying.

IMO, if they start dictating construction methods, "Open" combat as we know it is dead. Open is Open. For Open "B" we have a weight limit and an engine size limit and that is enough rules. Part of the fun for me is seeing how much I can accomplish within those rules. Too many rules and the innovation is stifled.

Adam


Still flying combat with SPADs! We don't need no steenking foam!!
AMA 640650, RCCA 744
Mile Hi Combat Squadron
www.milehirc.com
Cajun
Posts: 2020
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2001 10:22 pm
Location: USA

Post by Cajun »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><font color="red">I don't want SPADs to get left out when rules are getting drafted defining types of construction</font id="red">.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I don't know where this thought came from, but feel I have been around long enough to asssure you no one in RCCA is going to attempt to draft SPADS out of combat. Face it, the vast majority of us cut our combat teeth on coro.

I used Spads exclusively for a couple of years, but the little weight penalty and the fragility of coro just makes it difficult to compete against the higher tech foam planes. It's difficult to design a coro plane with enough wing span to be competitive with the 64"-72" reinforced foam ships.

BUT, all of my weekend fun combat planes are coro wings on bats with v-tails and I still love to fly them. And I still reccommend them for our new combat pilots. There will always be a place in combat for coro and Spads.[^]

CAJUN [8D]
Lone Star Combat State
AMA-CD 174052
RCCA 380
NACOGDOCHES, TEXAS
MY MIND WORKS LIKE LIGHTNING,,ONE BRILLIANT FLASH AND IT'S GONE!!
RH
Posts: 970
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 4:30 pm
Location: USA

Post by RH »

Well Cajun, it's been a while since I have heard anything very positive about SPADs and wanted to say something good about them. I've read your many arguements about the fragility of a 2mm coro wing. Try an 1/8" fiberglass rod with bi-di tape holding in the leading edge crease and put it in the air. Doesn't add a lot of weight and will flex and rebound on impact. I'm flying 60" wings of this type on my SSCs and will probably use the same wing, up from 48" on my B next summer. Prop strikes are the biggest damager to these wings and some packing tape fixes that right up.

rh
BenJammin
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Post by BenJammin »

I'm still flying Spads. Most of our combat is Sunday morning get togethers. We fly 42" dogfighter wings with gutterpipe or coro fuses. I've been using 4 mil folded into a triangle double thickness with approx 2 1/2" sides and a cutting board motor mount. Makes a real tough fuse.

I did buy my first foam wings this summer. They were 64" Chokers from Hat Trick. I put one of them together per plans and the other I put on one of my coro fuses. I liked the coro fuse better, easier to get the tail in line, and I'm a spad guy. [;)]

After flying the foam wings I decided to try and copy it in 2 mil. I think I came pretty close. I made it 64" fully symmetrical or as close as I could get. The spar is 3/16" doubled up on the center 20". For extra strength I glued 2 mil to both sides of the spar. Thought maybe that'd keep it from splitting. Don't know yet because I haven't midaired with it. To strengthen the leading edge I ran a bead of ProBond inside the LE before I closed it up then used Bi-Di tape from behind the spar to the LE on the outside top and bottom. The ailerons are 6 mil attached with Bi-Di tape, alot stiffer than 4 mil and the tape hinges alot easier than the usual spad method. Weight was identical to my foam wings.

In the air I can't tell any difference between it and the foam wing, maybe just a little flex in a hard turn.[:I] I did build one for a buddy but skipped the 2mil glued to the spar. He flew it in 5 rounds of Open B last Saturday and made it through several midairs. Unfortunately in the fifth round he was hit hard enough to break the spar. I will be building more of the 2 mil wings. I just need to find something a little stronger for the spar.

Miles from any City, MT
RH
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Post by RH »

Thanks BenJammin, that's the kind of encouraging results I like! Getting that LE taped up sure works to prevent splitting.

Where did you find 6mil coro? Gotta find some of that.

rh
Cajun
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Post by Cajun »

RH, how about posting a pic of your 60" SSC wing along with some basic dimensions and specs. I've tried the glass rod in the LE, and it does reduce the LE damage. My main problem with coro wings is the 2 mil splitting along the flute lines, and like BenJammin the spars break when hit hard from top or bottom. The longer the wing, the more likely this happens,,,,,in my experience. I've used yard sticks and lattice for spars.

I fly only SSC now, and keeping the weight down while maintaining the structural strength is a problem I have not been able to solve in a competitive contest design. But, I'll try any good idea as I still like to build and fly Spads.

I still think a good competitive SSC Spad design would bring new guys into combat and help keep some of the older ones who are getting tired of building. I flew a Debut, all 2 mil, wing yesterday that flew as well as any foam wing I own. But it had no armor built in and wouldn't last long in competitive combat.

If anyone else is interested, we can start a SSC wing design contest right here. I'm game[^], and will build and test fly any new wing design that appears to have merit.

CAJUN [8D]
Lone Star Combat State
AMA-CD 174052
RCCA 380
NACOGDOCHES, TEXAS
MY MIND WORKS LIKE LIGHTNING,,ONE BRILLIANT FLASH AND IT'S GONE!!
adamdb
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Post by adamdb »

Cajun, RH,
I will chime in here although I have yet to get my SSC plane in the air. What I tried when constucting the 2mm wing for it was to put a strip of 2" strapping tape in the leading edge of the wing before folding it, then put two layers of strapping tape on the outside of the wing after folding it. So the leading edge has 3 layers of strapping tape. Don't know how it would hold up in combat. The mistake I made with this wing was making it a symmetrical airfoil. I just don't think it develops enough lift for the limited power and our altitude.

Adam

Still flying combat with SPADs! We don't need no steenking foam!!
AMA 640650, RCCA 744
Mile Hi Combat Squadron
www.milehirc.com
RH
Posts: 970
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 4:30 pm
Location: USA

Post by RH »

Image

60"x9", no tapers, just a long Hershey Bar. Yardstick(s) spar, 1/8" fiberglass rod taped into LE. I try to get a flat bottom wing but this one is somewhere between flat and semi-symetrical. Last 4" of wing tip left naked - no spar or rod- no damage to the spar or rod while doing those spectaculer cart wheels we all like to do [B)] You can see the LE flexed back a couple of inches with no splits in a wing to wing.


Image

I don't use a lot of tape and it's all on the inside.

Currently working on a tapered wing with bigger rons to try tp pep up the roll rate but this is the base design...for now.

Love the idea of a coro SSC wing contest. A great winter event [:p]

I think flexibility is the key. Would like to find a fiberglass spar.

rh
Cajun
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Location: USA

Post by Cajun »

Randy, I'll have to try that one. I have built the same wing 9"x48" and it flew well. I'll try one stretched to 60".

What's the all up weight of your SSC plane?

Most of my SSC type Spads were coming in at 3+ lbs. At 3 lbs and 540 sq.in. the wing loading would only be 12.75 oz/sq.ft. If the plane turned and flew OK, we could live with that.[;)]

The Texas SSC planes (foam) have evolved into super tight turning machines with very light wing loadings and they are quite tough. The super tight turning is what is driving up the midairs, but that's the cost of progress in design[B)]


CAJUN [8D]
Lone Star Combat State
AMA-CD 174052
RCCA 380
NACOGDOCHES, TEXAS
MY MIND WORKS LIKE LIGHTNING,,ONE BRILLIANT FLASH AND IT'S GONE!!
RH
Posts: 970
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 4:30 pm
Location: USA

Post by RH »

Cajun,

That wing on this fuse Image
weighs in at 2 lb 14oz every time

rh
Cajun
Posts: 2020
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2001 10:22 pm
Location: USA

Post by Cajun »

Sounds good to me[:p]

Most of mine with the 10x48 wing come in at 3 lb 4oz., but I have been using the RNAF wing with the 4 mil bottom.

I'll give your design a try.

<font color="red">HOW ABOUT IT?? ANY OTHER IDEAS FROM THE SPAD FOLKS??</font id="red">

CAJUN [8D]
Lone Star Combat State
AMA-CD 174052
RCCA 380
NACOGDOCHES, TEXAS
MY MIND WORKS LIKE LIGHTNING,,ONE BRILLIANT FLASH AND IT'S GONE!!
David
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Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 10:09 pm
Location: USA

Post by David »

This is getting interesting! In club combat here, we're trying to standardize things to get everyone on a level playing field and it's a hoot! The big designs so far are a Dogfighter, Hell on Rails, and bats. On my HOR I put the rx and batt inside the center leading edge of the RNAF wing (behind the tank), and velcroed the 4mil center piece down over them, and put the rubber bands on top of it all. Just trying to protect gear and streamline the ship a little and it has held up well. There is a trade-off, however, with all the streamlining I did, I forgot to factor in the drag of Cajun's streamers on my wing...[:0][:D][:I]

One problem I didn't count on with a 2mil wing was that the string of one streamer cut into the LE. If it hadn't cut into the 2mil, it probably would have just draped the wing, but if it was the nylon line like we used at Paris, it might have done some damage. I can see the problem easily being remedied with the suggested bi-di tape on the LE and fiberglass rod inside.

Anyone thinking of a "flying wing" type fighter like the "Draco" SPAD clone of Lee's Falcon?

I'm thinking an armored coro wing on a "phencepost" fuse would be a fighter to be reckoned with.

Hmmm; gotta go look through my "supply pile."

Blue skies,
David
RH
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 4:30 pm
Location: USA

Post by RH »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Anyone thinking of a "flying wing" type fighter like the "Draco" SPAD clone of Lee's Falcon? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Funny you should mention that, David, I have one of Lee's birds I fished out of the trash with the intentions of Spadification [;)]

rh
SpadCat
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Post by SpadCat »

Hey RH,

Want to make sure you know I had a great time at your very nice field during the combat meet in July. We don't see much of that green carpet-like stuff here in the desert[:D]!

I have decided to stick with Spads in Open B for now. In SSC, I have both foamie warbirds and a HOR. I have to add a couple of ounces to bring the foamies to the min weight for SSC. I almost bought a Cobra after flying against them in Las Vagas, as I think they are the best flying ships available in both SSC and Open B. But, I can still build 8 all coro based spads for the price of one Cobra kit, and my combat flying skills have not yet exceeded a Spads capability. If I were chasing points, then it would not be a question of which airframe I would fly, but that is an addictive rat race that I have done in other sports and choose not to do at this time. So, since I fly combat for the pure fun of it, Spads suits me just fine.

I have used a varying combination of all coro, Great Stuff foam, fiberglass spars and bi-di tape pretty much as described in this post, and I have had collisions when the yard stick spars break, but the plane keeps flyng because of the fiberglass rod. My 3 Open B ships weigh 2lbs 13 oz, 3 lbs and 3 lbs 3 oz respectively. The wings make the difference in the weight as the fuses all weigh within an once of each other.


Keep 'em flyin'!

Screamin' SpadCat
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