Classes Suggestion old and Provisional feedback wa

This is the thread to aid in development of new ideas and classes. Post working rules and gather feedback!

Moderator: hbartel

Post Reply
danpow1973
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 2:38 pm
Contact:

Classes Suggestion old and Provisional feedback wa

Post by danpow1973 »

I orgionally posted this in the SSC then and now thread but I think this is a more appropriate place:

I am a fairly new Combat Pilot. The attraction of SSC was not the survivability, but the fact that it is relatively inexpensive to get started in. I like what it has evolved to, It is quite chalenging. It also would prepare a newer pilot for open B. When I first started thinking about Combat, I was overwhelmed with the amount of scale and open classes. I am president of Texoma RC Modelers. Our club got into Club combat and about 15 members built H.O.R.'s. We hosted a SSC Combat event last year where 4 of our club members competed with HOR's. One of these members will still be flying a HOR this year. The other three club members built Cobras or Smacks for the 2005 season. Unfortunately the other 11 club members that did not compete lost interest in their HOR's when they seen how much better the Cobras..etc... flew. I think Hor Combat is the solution for the need of a more survivable combat. Here is my Idea:

Remove these Classes:

Scale 2105 (nobody flyes it)
Open A (Too similiar to SSC)
Open C (very few rounds in previous years, not safe, too much)
Limited B (what is this anyway, no rounds flown)



Keep These Classes:

Open B (rename it Open Advanced)
SSC (Leave the rules alone, rename it Open Basic)
Scale 2610
Scale 2548

Add This Class:

SCC

(Survivable Club Combat, make the rules the same as SSC but require that the plane be made of coroplast and aluminum, do not allow foam,wood(other than spar and servo mount), or hardned plastic(with the exception of the motor mount) and limit the wingspan to 54") This would create a more survivable inexpensive class that would have little room to evolve as SSC did. There is already a pilot base out there with these planes (HOR) There is a lot of Pilots that fly SSC HOR combat but are not RCCA members. This would embrace them. There are already clubs that host HOR combat in the North Texas Area. So a lot these pilots who fly Club combat with Hors, would evolve into members and then fly the more competative classes. Also so the "vultures" don't doninate limit this class to beginners. IMAC Does this, Basically If You have placed in the top three in any higher event(Open Basic or Advanced) in three contests in a given year where there were at least 5 other pilots entered then you can not fly this class.

These are just Ideas/opinions what do you think.

Dan Powell
redfred1
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:05 pm
Contact:

Post by redfred1 »

I like your ideas!

Unlike some of the folks around here that think you need to have a pile of flights/events or years flying or miles traveled to provide a cognizant or coherent thought, I believe everyone has something to offer and should be taken as seriously as any other flier.

I have always thought a tiered approach should be available so that as one progresses, you can fly a more advanced class using your skills to compete with better palnes/pilots. My thought would be this:

<font color="red">One Design</font id="red"> class - everyone flies the same plane/engine/weight/prop/etc. Kinda the entry level. Some events really should only be for bringing in the new guys and enjoying the commraderie. Easy to build and easy to fly. Gotta hook em before you can book em!

Once you feel you got it - go to the next level...

<font color="blue">OPEN Designs</font id="blue">
<font color="blue">Open - A</font id="blue">
<font color="blue">Limited - B</font id="blue">

<font color="green">Scale Designs</font id="green">
<font color="green">SSC - Semi Scale only</font id="green">
<font color="green">2548</font id="green">

Think You got it figured out? On to the big boys!

<font color="blue">Open B </font id="blue">

<font color="green"> 2610</font id="green">

These classes should provide for the anything goes/no holds barred all out speed and competitiveness that the best of the best fly and that the new guy should (hopefully aspire to).
This is also where the NPS should come into play. At the highest levels only. Not every event should be for National points, that is something that should be kept to the ultra competitive events. Those should be for the AMA Nats level events, especially since it takes so long for the rules system to change. Keep those static events rules for the big events and allow the more flexible RCCA events to change/adjust on a more frequent schedule to prevent one design or improvement from running away with the class.

Think about the tiered approach and it will make sense.

FredD
Lou Melancon
Posts: 2389
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2001 5:16 pm
Contact:

Post by Lou Melancon »

Dan and Fred,
You both have good ideas. Who do you think will carry them out? A lot of folks post very good ideas, but there is seldom any follow through.

It takes folks like you two to come up with an idea and make it work. A lot of folks have come up with really good ideas but they wanted someone else, or the entire RCCA to take up the idea and run with it. So far the successful changes in direction of the organization have come from a few people developing the concepts, testing them and showing the results.

At a local or club level you have to do whatever works for your fellow pilots. Unless they want to travel to contests they could and should care less about what the RCCA rules are. They need what works for them locally. The RCCA has to act from the basis of consistency on a national basis. At the local level what ever works is what should be done.
redfred1
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:05 pm
Contact:

Post by redfred1 »

Im not sure I get your point Lou?

We do fly here on a regularily scheduled basis. Because of our field arrangement (with the land owners), we cannot have official events that may draw crowds, etc. We do try to build planes that meet RCCA requirements in case we get a chance to participate in a sanctioned event, even though we are lenient in what planes fly in what class.

We do the best we can to foster and promote R/C combat. There are no sanctioned events within a few hours drive from here either. Although I do recall you inviting our group to Georgia, that is a stretch for most of us, but we do thank you for the invite.

My point was there are lots of ways to skin a cat. Many folks offer ideas to try to support combat flying and inject some different view points.

There is really no way for our band of combateers to do what I suggested. We cannot impose an organizational change on the RCCA, nor would we want to. All I was suggesting was an idea on how maybe to answer some of the issues that have been out there for some time and to provide a structure to the events already in place.

Our group had actually drafted a note to be posted here on what we are doing and how we are having success so maybe other isolated fliers might be able to do some of the things we do to promote combat. When all was said and done, the consensus was to not post it because it seems the comments brought up here by anyone other than the seeming select few were ignored. That statement being verified by one of the moderators and the new president. This is the usual case with many organizations. It is normal. My comment was just meant to get people to focus on what is being said rather than who said it.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing anyone or anything. I enjoy combat, and this site. Many of the folks here are terrific and extremely helpful and it is my pleasure to be able to have a place to chat about combat stuff, so thank you all for that.

I have been an active combat builder and flier. Even when I moved from New York to North Carolina where NO ONE was flying combat, I kept building and flying planes in hopes of enticing a few folks to tie one on and have some fun. My website will atest to that!

Anyway, I do appreciate your reply and thanks for your efforts.

FredD
Lou Melancon
Posts: 2389
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2001 5:16 pm
Contact:

Post by Lou Melancon »

RedFred,
I understand your situation and have seen the interest that you and you fellow fliers have been able to generate locally.

My point is/was that a lot of folks make suggestions... that they want others to carry through on. I have seen time and again someone make a suggestion for what the organization should do, but they don't individually try it out wanting others to do it for them.

Making suggestions is always a good idea, carrying through on them is what is needed.

This is not a criticism of you or Dan, but it should become our standard answer for people suggesting we make changes. We should encourage them to do what they are suggesting and tell us all how it works out.
Lee Liddle
Posts: 3330
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:30 pm
Location: USA

Post by Lee Liddle »

Dan, wholesale reconstruction of class structure would be impossible to implement, but I agree with the basics of what you are suggesting.

There are several old events on the books which could be removed. This may simplify things for a raw beginner, but a few questions on the forum would clear things up quickly.

What`s being flown now.. Basicly, it`s Open B, SSC and Scale in the form of 2610 or 2548. After this year I think it will be clear which event is the future of Scale combat in the RCCA. That`s it...pretty simple. Limited B will be tried in some areas as a tamed down version of Open B. B is also too fast for most pilots and may benifit from some prop and RPM limits.

The reason that the new events pop up is because history has shown us that it`s almost impossible to make major changes to existing events due to the long and complicated rules cycle of the AMA. The provisional system has allowed us more flexability to fine tune rules.

As for your suggestion for a beginners event, I agree 100% that it is something that the RCCA absolutly has to have in order to grow new members and maintain current membership. Here is a post that I made a while back on the other thread........
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do like the idea of a beginner's spec class. I'm not sure I'd do it with NPS, but at least put something on the 'books' that matches what a lot of groups do anyway, or as a suggested class for club combat. Something low-tech and easy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That`s what I`m thinking. Have something on the books so that the beginners and club combaters could feel more involved with RCCA if they want to. Right now, if they fly spec HORS or whatever, they are just a small isolated group of guys with no national identity or support. I think it would be good to reach out to these groups, instead of one-upping them with our super performing SSCs, and leaving them with the impression that we are too good to recognise what they do.

Also, a CD could advertise that a beginners class will be flown at the RCCA contest. Maybe you get 4 or 5 beginners that show up. You group them together in their own heat and slide them into each round. Experienced pilots are available to help the new guys and the new guys get good exposure to SSC or whatever. If they want, they could even fly their spec planes in the main event.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Maybe you could add something like this to your event. I think it`d be great to encourage your club members to dust off their HORs and come fly in the event. It would probably just add one heat per round to the event. Just fly the SSC, say two heats, then have a heat of HOR-bat. The vets will be there to judge and coach the new guys and the new guys will be there to judge for the vets. It would also slow the pace down a little for the SSC fliers.

<font size="5">Let`s give it a try, that`s what it takes in the RCCA to "get `er done"</font id="size5">
User avatar
Dane McGee
Posts: 885
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 1:57 pm
Location: Greenville, Texas

Post by Dane McGee »

Lee, what would be a good set of specs for a beginners class?

If someone will start a seperate beginners class thread and post ideas, I'll take the specs and build a couple of birds and give it a try at the local non-RCCA level and document the results.
Lee Liddle
Posts: 3330
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:30 pm
Location: USA

Post by Lee Liddle »

That would be cool Dane. Let me get the input from a couple of guys and we`ll come up with some specs.

My thinking would be dimentions that would be roughly based on the basic HOR as far as wing span and area go, but allow the use of foam for more durable planes. That way HORs would be at no disadvantage performance wise, but coro wings would be eventualy replaced by foam by most pilots.
User avatar
Which_way_is_up
Posts: 1637
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:54 am
Location: Dallas, Texas

Post by Which_way_is_up »

My Bandito from three years ago flew like the HORs do, that would make a good spec plane. Maybe Stan could start building those again? Good fuselage and a simple plank foam wing?
jfromm
Posts: 268
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2002 1:53 pm
Location: USA

Post by jfromm »

Dan and Fred,

It is more complicated than you think. What works for you might not work everywhere else for example Colorado at 6000 ft elevation. Here is what I have found. What people fly is based on the energy of a person in the area. I think it is easiest to get people to fly 40 size Spades. I also think that is somewhat reckless considering the damage they can do, but I was able to get 23 people to fly them at one club. We used engines from 40 to 48. When I switched the club to SSC they had a forsaken look about them, but 12 members got with the program. I know of another club that flies 40 size combat and they have a 48-inch wing limit, and they also do quite well. If you push RCCA rules on a club, combat will go down. The club I’m referring to that is successful avoids midairs and outsiders, which is why I think they are successful.

I’m also sure that for a spec class to work, the airplanes have to fly well! The only engines that club members have available are 40 size, so if they are pushed into a 15 or 25 they have to buy. If you look at the investment for a good combat airplane, it is going to be around $225 for engine airplane and radio gear, so it better fly well. I fly every weekend in Cincinnati and I know that the 15 size have much less damage which is what I would recommend. I really like the SSC class but I think it needs a weight for span/area formula. Something like this:

2 lb minimum for 48 inch wing span or 400 sq-in (this would be almost a Open-A)
2.5 lb minimum for 60 inch wing span500 sq-in
3 lb minimum for 72 inch wing span 600 sq-in
(number for conversation only)

The thought behind this is a 72 inch wingspan is easier to get a cut than a 48 inch wingspan. Maybe once a person wins a meet, he should be forced to cut his wings. We need ideas, but don’t be surprised when someone interprets then differently than what you wanted.

The biggest problem I see with what you want is there are beginners and regulars. Regulars want to fly and will win over beginners. Unless the beginner gets an advantage over the regulars, they will get discouraged, so what you are pushing for is a mute point and just another flavor of the month that has already been done. It is amazing that all the bad rules we have this year, where great ideas last year!
THend
Posts: 2397
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2001 9:12 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by THend »

Jay, I worked very hard last rules cycle to get the C class on the books. It is there, and you guys should fly it. If it works for you, great! Gary Hardwick emailed me a while back, and they are flying tons of C class combat. But, if anyone mentions the RCCA, the combatants throw a fit.

RC Combat is supposed to be fun. Fun is probably best defined at the club level. Competitive RC Combat is still fun, but is to be defined on a larger basis, as in national points. Not all of us fit into both categories.
Post Reply

Return to “Proposed Provisional Classes”