Just a thought

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AIM
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Just a thought

Post by AIM »

Why are we not thinking a Limited C class. Be a great class for attracting new pilots. (I've been told Open C is kinda wild)

ALL STARTER STUFF!

40 size, full size batt packs, no pipes, min weight, full size servos, max rpms, etc... Sure we can do this at a club level but lets face it... You guys are not gonna travel alot for no points, and simply stated, the hype that comes along with flying against the pros and NPS will attract new members providing they can GET STARTED WITH WHAT THEY CURRENTLY have...

It could pretty easily be set up slow enough for beginners. Easy to build with a 3.5 to 4.lb min weight.
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Post by Don Pruitt »

Aaron,
First what you need to do is to write up a list of rules for this prospective class and post them on the Rules Forum. Then build planes and hold unofficial contest to evaluate the popularity and feasibility. As more people get interested you can expect a flurry of activity and copious rules changes. Over time the proposed class will become more refined and eventually, as interest in Limited C grows, you can petition the RCCA for provisional status. At this point it will qualify for NPS points and may be allowed to be flown at the AMA NATs as a demo event. Who knows, after four or five more years the AMA may accept it as a rulebook event.
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boiler
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Post by boiler »

Aaron, what you held last year could have been modified to be open c easily. The open B guys could fly for open c points using their regular planes and kick your behinds. (Just like last year[:)]) The only thing that would be different is your local guys would have to follow open C rules which limit weight and displacement. After they get whupped by b planes they might start building them. If they want to tone down speed to get into combat, I would recommend building a SSC plane. That would just be the cost of a LA or Magnum 15 engine. They could try out at the Battle for Bean Town after practicing back home.
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Post by mad »

Aaron,
One of the big problems with the 40 size combat is the setback distances. You need a large field and it seams like you are flying in another county
At Bon Aqua you would have to stand totally across the runway in the hayfield to have a 40 size combat. SSC with the 15 size motors has opened up a more fields to hold combat
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Post by thojo »

old timers club would be totally eliminated from the event, they can't see that far!!!
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Post by cipoll717 »

Aaron,
I think ALL combat is awesome! The only thing about open C is that the destructin factor will be higher than what we typically see with SSC or B. This due to the mv^2 law. I agree, it is attractive from the standpoint that everyone has a 40 laying around. A coupel of years ago, we saw a huge interest in 40 size combat. Everyone at our club got into it. Unfortunately, everyone is now out of it. Since they experienced a lot of destruction, they feel it just wasnt worth the time, effort, and cost. In my opinion, it may have been more fruitful to channel that initial interest into flying a less destructive class. sure they would have to buy a new engine, but in the long run, they would have spent less money, and had a better experience. Maybe a fair amount would still be flying today. So, I dont want to discourage anyone getting into combat, but just want to support what Bob said, and suggest they bite the bullet for a 15 size engine and fly SSC. Alternatively, if you want, why not get them to consider 1/2a combat. This is even less destructive, and in my opinion funner for club combat. Plus, some may already have a 0.049 or 0.061 engine laying around.
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Post by AIM »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by boiler</i>
<br />Aaron, what you held last year could have been modified to be open c easily. The open B guys could fly for open c points using their regular planes and kick your behinds. (Just like last year[:)]) The only thing that would be different is your local guys would have to follow open C rules which limit weight and displacement. After they get whupped by b planes they might start building them. If they want to tone down speed to get into combat, I would recommend building a SSC plane. That would just be the cost of a LA or Magnum 15 engine. They could try out at the Battle for Bean Town after practicing back home.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think you missed my point. I don't think OpenC is what I'm after. (From what I have been told OpenC is WILD) And newbies don't need WILD..
I'm just thinkin on a class that accomidates newbies and legends alike. Looking at the current trends/suggestions in the forums it SEEMS that many of you are looking at slowing things down a bit. For example LimB SSC lim1/2A 2548. All of which are great but in my VERY UNEDUCATED opinion not geared towards the newbie.
Sure if they built one of these they would be thrilled, but it's hard to get a NEW guy to go out and spend some cash (PRIOR TO THE COMBAT ADDICTION) for an aspect of the hobby that is to say the least DAMAGING. Look at it this way.
We tell the new guy to EXPECT damage. You WILL get hit. You will waste a plane. (all with good intentions to not mislead the new guy)
Right after that we tell them to go out and buy this engine, that reciever, these servos, and ya wanna build it like this. Well how many are gonna do this? 1 out of 5 maybe.
Now if I stay with our original OpenC class I've been told that things will QUICKLY get out of hand and we'll have planes doin 900 MPH and the will be no such thing as SLIGHT damage. And I'll lose club interest.
If I tell them to go out and spend some cash. I'll lose club interest.

I'm probably trying to achieve an impossible goal here to keep almost every new guy and cater to the veterans but I think it's worth some thought.
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Post by Feathers »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm probably trying to achieve an impossible goal here to keep almost every new guy and cater to the veterans but I think it's worth some thought.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Aaron,

Your goal is worthy and worthwhile. After spending countless middle-of-the-night hours thinking through all the ideas and possibilities I have been unsuccessful at creating the perfect combat environment for all.

Combat started some five years ago for me. I heard of an event in Milwaukee and decided that I had to go and see what combat was about. I picked up a couple of .25’s and some Predators to put ‘em on and headed down to fly combat. I had a great time and met some people that I enjoyed spending time with. I came back and started ordering bulk kits from Fredricks and selling them at my field. There was a time when every pilot at our field had a Bat Trick sitting on the flightline. We had impromptu combat with 6-7 up on a regular basis. It was fun for everyone- pilots and spectators alike.

It was so fun that soon we had a group ready to travel to some local RCCA events. We drove for hours and considered it an adventure. We had fun, but it was clear that the top planes were just in a different class than ours. We didn’t know anything about the big, shiny pipes but we went home determined to find out about them. Soon, the first pilot at our field showed up with an Ultrathrust and things changed. Now, in order to keep up everyone had to spend the money or just muck around with the faster planes with little hope of running anyone down or getting away. Some did buy pipes, but others decided that was enough. Less folks participated.

Then, at some of the RCCA events we ran into pilots flying the Jett .30’s. They screamed and were faster yet than our engines on pipes. Soon there were folks purchasing the Jett engines to fly even local combat at our field. We tried to set a .25 limit to keep the Jett .30’s from our organized local combat sessions and actually had a member scratch the .30 off the case of his Jett and put on his own .25. It was crazy. The fun was being sucked out of it.

Then along came SSC and I thought, “here’s the fix for our problemâ€
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Post by Cajun »

Thanks Tim for a great post. It could be titled a <b>CONDENSED NARRATIVE OF R/C COMBAT</b>. It seems most of us who have been in combat for five years or longer have witnessed the scene as Tim describes it.

Most seem to want, or say they want, a more docile combat environment with fewer midairs, less destruction, less building, less cost, BUT very few will tolerate a slower speed. That's the paradox we just don't seem to work through. Almost every pilot I know will readilly admit that excessive speed and it's resultant destruction is the cause of our excessive membership turnover, but few or any will seriously attempt to address the problem.

The only way I see to solve this problem is with a spec class requiring simple, inexpensive, easilly built planes with stock sport .25 engines and a spec prop. But, sadly, this idea is vetoed repeatedly on this forum for a number of feable excuses. The result is combat is evolving into a club sport WITH spec planes, outside of the arena of RCCA and RCCA membership and influence, and sanctioned meets are in decline.

SO, the beat goes on, and the decline in our numbers continues untill we wake up some day facing the reality we don't have enough interest left to sustain organized combat, with everyone dumfoundedly asking,,,,,<font color="red"><b>WHAT HAPPENED</b></font id="red">[?] IT STILL TAKES TWO OR MORE TO FLY COMBAT[:0][8D]
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Post by boiler »

There is a spec class plane (so to speak) up in Wisconsin/Minnesota. It's a very fast/cheap build with limited flying ability. Guys fly it as club combat weekly but it hasn't caught on nationally. I have seen a couple from Florida fly in an ssc event in Atlanta. It's a coro plane called the Gnat. When I get done building my fleet for 6 events this year..............................I'm going to build a Gnat. I know I'm a freak building for everything but I like to fly any combat and am retired so I have the time. I'm holding a ssc meet at our field on June 10th to show my 70 club members what kind of fun people flying combat can have. Maybe, just maybe, I will get someone to fly club combat with. I fly all over the country now because its my only chance to fly any combat. I have had limited success starting Slow Stick combat in the local gym during the winter. Now that is a speck class that has come about just because newbies have started there. Again Aaron, that's probably of no help to you. Just trying to share my experience in the matter over the last 3-4 years.
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Post by cipoll717 »

Aaron,

classic example of an arms race taking place, with increasingly more expensive and higher performance planes taking over. It's just a natural thing that happens in a competitive environemnt. The sad thing is, like you described, it tends to wear out participants.

I've taken a stand to stop the insanity- I fly open B using only stock mufflers. I just didn't like spending an extra $40 bucks on Mousse can mufflers. Fortunately, I had some success, finishing 12th this year in NPS. I'd like to think that I may have done better if I used a can, but 12th place is fine with me!

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Post by Hat Trick »

My experience has been the same as Tims. It's vital to get combat started on the right foot and then have strict limits to keep it there. Unfortunately we have had lots of ideas of the ideal combat class. Then factor in that the new guy trying to start combat in his area does not have the benifit of hindsite at all and usually has 10 people steering him in 10 differant directions!
I still believe some our biggest mistakes is in not limiting classes early enough and not keeping the lid on tight enough!
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Post by sgilkey »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The only way I see to solve this problem is with a spec class requiring simple, inexpensive, easilly built planes with stock sport .25 engines and a spec prop.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

i'm missing something, that sounds like Limited B to me. you can have a lot of fun with limited B with coro planes, old bat tricks, old Q500 wings on coro fuses, etc. ask me how i know.... all cheap, full-size nylon geared servos, bone-stock and reliable 25-28 engines, etc. simple, fun, durable. don't see where that concept has been shot down. maybe you're talking spec "airframe" class. there's so many folks in combat who want to "roll their own" that I hardly see a spec class as the salvation of combat. i think it could be darn fun, mind you, but not a quantum jump from Limited B.
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Post by AIM »

I think LimB is about the closest thing that we have right now for beginners and veterans alike. I'm really fired up about this class after only flying it a couple of times. The only 2 drawbacks to LimB for the beginner is this.

1: most beginners do not have a .25 /They ALL have 40s

2: to build close to the target weight is not easy for the beginner. I know all of you are shaking your head over this one thinking that 3.25 is a snap, but I've whittled out about 10 planes over the last year and just a month ago built my first one to target weight. (heII I was so excited I called everyone I knew) Most newbies are gonna be just like me. Armor Armor and more Armor. 9 out of 10 are gonna be in the 4.lb + range. Sure in LimB a guy can build a 4.lb plane but It's gonna fly like my old Butterfly's (slow and draggy)

My initial thoughts on this Lim "C" were based on the current parameters of LimB just slightly bigger/heavier

Something like this.
1: up to .47
2: min 3.75 .lb/ or 4 .lb
3: 14500 max rpm
4: 11/4 prop
5: 60" span max/ 700 sq.in. max
Or even easier

1: up to .47
2: 14500 max
3: 11/4 prop
4: 3.75 .lbs
5: build what ya want wing wise.

As I stated before this whole idea is just that..An idea..
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Post by Cajun »

Aaron, most of us who have been involved in combat for a while have been the "C" route and have seen the carnage it leaves. Four or five years ago I was in the group that pushed thru the Open C class. Sadly, I must admit I was wrong. It was a dismal failure. When AMA came up with the setback rule it fortunately put Open C out of it's short lived, miserable existence. When you have a midair in SSC or Lim B you usually only lose an airframe <b>at worst</b> or possibly just a wing. With "C" a midair can mean loss of plane, engine, receiver and servos. That can get expensive, even if you already own the .40 engine.

.25 sport engines are not expensive, and they are durable. Couple it to a plane having an enclosed fuselage to protect the radio gear and the wear and tear on your wallet will not be excessive. I personally use flat bats exclusively with coro or foam wings. Like Scott said these planes are somewhat competitive in Limited B, fun to fly, and give a whole lot of bang for the buck. The plane can be built and set up in four to six hours with a total cost of ten bucks or so. Making weight is not a problem since no additional armor is needed.

In my post promoting Spec Planes, I misspoke. Actually I would only like to see a Spec Wing, and then only for the Limited B class. Since the wing size, shape, and airfoil sets the flying characteristics a spec wing could be attached to any airframe without noticably altering the flying performance. This would make an inexpensive class where the performance would only be enhanced by the pilots ability.

This is being done over the country on a local club basis with local club rules. Some NE clubs ae still flying only Gremlins[:p]; some fly only Battle Floyds[8D]; some fly only Spads[:)]; some fly Gnats[:(] and one of our Texas clubs has regular meets limited to Spad Hors[^]. It is interesting to note none of these are high performance planes and they are all inexpensive. It is also interesting that any of these could be flown in Limited B, as Scott pointed out.

As Dr. Evil pointed out, we have the opportunity to make Lim B a viable sportsmans class if we can keep the lid on speed/performance creep. We will be flyins some Limited B in Texas this season. Time will tell if it is successful. If I were trying to get combat started in a new area this is the class I would be pushing.
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