2007 NATS

This is the big one ladies and gents, the AMA Nats

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Vapor52
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Post by Vapor52 »

I have tried in the past to tighten up the pilots line and also to shorten the length. It is nearly impossible to get a combat pilot to pit anywhere but where he (or she ) has picked out, it all depends on where they park. If we were to assign spaces, whether they were drawn for, assigned, awarded by previous years finish, or just 1st come basis it would mean a lot of work and some extra expense to draw it out & maintain it. In years past it was set up that all planes and support equip stayed in the pits and then the center was a staging area, and then only pilots with their planes that were in the heat were allowed up to the flight line. I am listening to all suggestions. Keep in mind that if we re-implement some of these procedures it will inconvenience a lot of pilots. I agree that it would be somewhat safer though, so I am for listening to ideas.--------rick
Vapor52
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Post by Vapor52 »

Kirk, as far as announcing breaks, etc. I believe the PA needs to be better, there were many times that I felt as though I was talking to the wind, Don Veres would get on and make the same announcement for me and everyone would respond. I must have a wimpy voice I guess. I think a better PA would help though. Consistency yes, but breaks have to hinge around the ends of rounds, classes, etc.--------rick
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Post by Alex Treneff »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by montague</i>
<br />- The pausing the clock thing. I honestly didn't have a problem with it, though I did space out and get caught by surprise once or twice. It's a tough call though, if you do a fixed length break between rounds, and don't hold, then you wind up causing guys who are having mechanical problems to 0 rounds, or launch something iffy in a hurry. I'd prefer to let guys get their gear ready and safe over running on a tight schedule, but that's just me.

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The problem with not sticking to a strict schedule is lack of consistency. There were breaks for guys that needed to fix their planes, but when I couldn't find a single pilot to walk up to the line and judge until about 10 seconds to start engines, I called "Stop the clock, I can't find a judge" and got nothing. I had been calling for one for a few minutes. If you deny anyone a break in the countdown, do it for everyone. That is the whole point of the 5 minutes. Once you start the 5 minutes, "Start Engines" should be called 5 minutes later.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by lee liddle</i>
<br />Rick, it could be presented to the AMA like this:

Day 1
Open B
2610
SSC

Day 2
Open B finals
2610 finals
SSC

Day 3
SSC finals
Lim B
2548

Day 4
Lim B finals
2548 finals
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Lee, the only problem with that is that some of us can't afford to be in Muncie 3 or 4 full days. Keeping classes down to 2 days limits travel time. Also, the pairs of classes that a lot of guys fly together, like SSC and Limited B, ought to be kept on the same days. I flew Limited B this year because we were there. I hadn't planned to. Next year I will fly it again if it's still on the SSC days.
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Ed Kettler
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Post by Ed Kettler »

How did the shirts look?
Alex Treneff
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Post by Alex Treneff »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Vapor52</i>
<br />Kirk, as far as announcing breaks, etc. I believe the PA needs to be better, there were many times that I felt as though I was talking to the wind, Don Veres would get on and make the same announcement for me and everyone would respond. I must have a wimpy voice I guess. I think a better PA would help though. Consistency yes, but breaks have to hinge around the ends of rounds, classes, etc.--------rick
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Does the AMA not have a PA we can use for the NATs? A decent PA would not cost the organization very much. I am also surprised that neither the AMA or RCCA had clipboards and pens. Both organizations are very financially capable of having a supply of clipboards.

At the planning meeting, maybe ask the AMA about a decent PA that we could use at the flying site. It is the NATs, after all.
Vapor52
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Post by Vapor52 »

Alex, that PA system was the AMA's. And while I did bring several clip boards as did others, the AMA dropped off about a dozen. I believe my idea of each pilot bring his own clip board, pen, and score sheet for each event is the best idea. If you provide your own you will look after it better and it is one less thing for the organizers to worry about.----rick
Vapor52
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Post by Vapor52 »

The pausing the clock thing--------tell me more----- would going to say 7 minutes and no pause be more satisfactory? Then if your not ready, 0 for the round. You can't have it both ways but I am open to improvement. If you have been the recipient of the extra time then you will vote to allow the pause. Also I did announce previously to hitting the button that the clock was going to re-start---I just think that all did not always listen for it or pay attention--------rick
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cshepherd
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Post by cshepherd »

Rick, I think a fixed amount of time between heats would be an acceptable solution. 7-8 minutes sounds about right. During the NATS I used the pause feature a couple of times when I had back to back heats.

I can't say that I had any trouble hearing the PA, but that was because I was listening for it and also because I was not in the middle of an aircraft graveyard jammed shoulder to shoulder with my fellow pilots. [;)]

I don't mind bringing my own clipboard, scoresheet, pens or anything else. I would have if I had known to check the soapbox the day before I left. Notification of such requirements would have better if communicated earlier. JMO.
sgilkey
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Post by sgilkey »

Rick, maybe I was the only one brain dead but it sounds like it hit Kirk too- what threw me is that you (clearly) announced the clock was going to pause at 1 minute, then for some reason I would get distracted and maybe not hear the 1 minute and next thing I knew, there were 30 seconds to go (or less) and I was somehow behind teh 8-ball. I managed, and if it didn't affect everyone else then I'm fine. My SUGGESTION is to just announce "we're going on pause" and then restart the clock at 5 (or maybe even 4 or 3 at the minimum) minutes to start engines, but if everything went exactly as it did last week, i'd survive fine!
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lightning
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Post by lightning »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ed Kettler</i>
<br />How did the shirts look?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ed, the shirts were great! Thanks

Now to comment on the 5 minute breaks/pauses.
For a pilot who lands the plane intact, even in a back to back situation, checking the battery, refueling and tying on a new streamer is easily accomplished in the five minute time-frame.
However, for a pilot who was downed in one heat and has to fetch the plane, assess if it can fly again or break out the backup, the five minutes is rather tight. There were a couple of times I arrived back in the pits with a broken airplane in a back-to back situation only to hear "three minutes to start engines". That gets a little tense!
Not sure I agree with extending the interval to seven minutes between ALL rounds as that will add unnecessary delay the the day's progress but perhaps we could consider a known extension for a pilot who is in a tight timing situation. Rolling the clock back two or three minutes would let ALL pilots keep track. If two or three extra minutes is not enough for the pilot who needs the delay, well I don't agree that an indefinite hold is acceptable to everyone either. It may be that the unlucky pilot launches late. He still has the 90 second window after all.
Just my 2¢ worth
Flame away guys!!
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Ed Kettler
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Post by Ed Kettler »

Rick, did something change from the last couple of years on how we run the CD? As I recall, we used to run the CD down to about 2 minutes then check for pilots needing more time, asked how long, announced that we were on a delay, then announced that we were restarting the clock when we got the ready signal. Don't recall having many issues
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Post by montague »

Rick,
Just to be clear, I don't think you did a bad job at all. I honestly didn't have a problem hearing you most of the time, but I was close to a speaker, and I was really trying to listen, since I don't hear very well. Since I know I don't, I try to pay attention to avoid missing things. Doesn't always work, but it's not necessarily anyone's fault other than my own.

There were a few times where the countdown was re-started under 2min, and that can be a surprise. You may want to consider using one of the CDs that has the 5min countdown broken up in to separate tracks, so you can easily backup or roll forward to the 2min point. I do think restarting and getting the actual "2 min to start engines" notice there helps a lot.

As I see it, the problem with pausing and then starting at the 5min point is that you waste a lot of time, since a lot of guys won't tell the CD to re-start the timer until they are actually ready. It's not much time wasted, but it adds up.

I'm not really in favor of a 5 or 7 or whatever clock between heats with no pauses for real issues. I know I'll be a lot less likely to want to judge a heat before I'm due up if I can't ask for a pause, instead I'll be using all that time to pre-flight more than I usually do. (and fwiw, during SSC, I judged more than 10 heats, many of them right before I flew).

Also, some of us had frequency conflicts. During SSC, there was no way for me to pre-flight a plane until the heat before me had finished. And if the other guy crashed way out, I might be waiting well in to the 5min count before I could even turn on my TX to check things over. I think the CD needs to have the flexibility to stop the timer as they want.

At other contests which ran a strict 5min countdown, I saw a lot more evidence of guys throwing up planes without working throttles, or other maybe-not-so-safe arragements just because there wasn't time to really check things out. I prefer to let things take a little more time and allow guys time to be safe and get it right.

I also think that some guys simply do not do enough to make sure they are herd when they need a pause from the CD, or need a judge or whatnot. Maybe you really need to walk over to the CD and tap them on the shoulder, or send someone down to get the CD's attention. There's a lot of noise in the pits, guys testing engines, chatter, and so on. More than once, I saw guys just not doing enough to make sure they were clearly heard.

Ed, I'm not sure I'm clear on that pit arragement, but it looks like a really bad idea to me. It looks like it will force guys to start engines with other people between them and the pilot line, and force multiple people to be walking around each other carying running planes, trying to keep streamers out of the way and so on. Personally, the way the Nats flightline has been has worked fine. It's really up to the pilots to not pile on top of each other. I have no idea why things were so crowded at the left end of the line this year, I've always been on the left end since 2002, and it's usually been much more empty, while there were usually a lot more guys down to the right. I have no idea why it changed this year. I do think that guys arriving late, who only fly the later events, need to look more closely at where they are putting their gear, where guys who have been there first are pitted, and work around that rather than jumping in on top.

And as far as what events on what days, I'd much rather see 3 days for SSC than having any event run 10 rounds in one day.

I could see something like this (using generic labels instead of specific classes)
day 1:
A 5 rounds
B 5 rounds
day2:
A 5
B 5
C 5
day 3
C 5
D 5
E 5
day 4
D 5
E 5

The downside to that approach is having two days with 2 class changes in them, but if it's kept short, and the classes picked so that the changes are less involved, I think it might work.
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Ed Kettler
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Post by Ed Kettler »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">There were a few times where the countdown was re-started under 2min, and that can be a surprise. You may want to consider using one of the CDs that has the 5min countdown broken up in to separate tracks, so you can easily backup or roll forward to the 2min point. I do think restarting and getting the actual "2 min to start engines" notice there helps a lot.
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Rick,

If you need a copy, please let me know and I will burn one for you.
Vapor52
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Post by Vapor52 »

Ed, all was pretty much the same except on some occasions I ran the clock 1 minute before the pause so that upon re-starting it would go quicker, this seems to have been a move that put undo pressure on some already stressed pilots. I will go back to using the 2 minutes in the future. The main objectives in order of importance to me are 1- safety, 2- pilots have fun flying combat, 3- get all the scheduled rounds in. As far as objective 2 goes if I am doing something that takes away some of the fun unnecessarily then I want to correct that.You do have to keep in mind that sometimes what makes one pilot happy stresses another. One other thing is that we can have 2 golf carts if we want them, I decline because I am responsible for them, next year I will take 2 and dedicate one for back to back pilots only.--------rick
Vapor52
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Post by Vapor52 »

Someone will have to help me with this one---on the round matrix maker is there any way that the pilots that have back to back heats could be in color or underlined? That would give the CD a quick heads up on who might need the time----rick
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