double sided tape..legal?

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Which_way_is_up
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Post by Which_way_is_up »

CMichael wrote:Well,here is the reason I brought up the subject,after what i have to say here,I will probable be looked upon like a turd in a party punch bowl..
Last weekend at the Battle over Malta..Exeter California, this was the first real high count pilot event that I ever been in..Each of those heats was INTENSE!! Those 5 minutes seemed like 30 seconds and 35 minutes at the same time!!

During world war 2 dogfighting combat relied on a pilot to manuver behind the foe,out think him and be able to get behind him in order to "get the shot"..To have 5 kills(cuts) and you became an Ace..but it was one of the most difficult thing a fighter pilot could do..most of the time it would take months if ever to become an ace..
Then during the late 50s and 60s, radar guided missiles were installed on combat planes were all the pilot had to do was aim the missile in the general direction and the radar did the rest to shoot down the foe..the art of air combat was lost because of it.. the pilots relied on missiles too much..

So here comes the turd part..The use of sticky fluids and ribbon that tears at the slightest tug..are we losing the skill of hard fought and won air combat battles..

During Exeter's event the cutting of ribbons , I feel was more done with the use of the sticky stuff and a ribbon too easy to tear. The actual prop cut were you had to manuver behind your oppenent to "get the shot" was not there very much..

Also there were several rounds were all planes were running around without any ribbons..we just flew around till the time was up

To me a cut should be a very hard thing to do..only the best pilots are able to actually cut your foe's ribbon with his prop..

And with that every cut will be a very memorable event..does anyone remember how many cuts they had in the 3rd round in your last event??..To become an Ace (5 cuts) in an event should have its own plaque reward..

All right so if I was king for a day and could change the rules for one event..no sticky fluids and real forest supply tape..The stuff that takes a spinning prop to cut..

I guess the final word is..A cut should be like a diamond(very rare and hard to come by) in your hand not grains of sand....Mike
CMichael, I don't necessarily disagree with anything that you've said but unfortunately the facts are that a sticky LE has been the standard of combat for at least the 10 years that I've been flying combat and it's probably not going to change and for a couple of good reasons. I won't bother to go into them because I'm sure that there are several others that will want to discuss this at length. :mrgreen:

(Edited by Lightning to clean up formatting errors with the new software)
cosmo64
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Post by cosmo64 »

I too was at exeter and saw a number of prop cuts as well as a number of wing wraps...I have no problem with tape...as boring as a round can get if there are no streamers...I think a round of little to no cuts is also boring..IMHO if the streamers are harder to cut then the carnage will most likely go up with more agressive flying..

I still don't see the difference between sticky tape and a thin strip of sandpaper...I know that this has been disscussed into the ground and rules are rules...I stick with the tape
CMichael
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Post by CMichael »

Well I guess there is 2 perspectives of this..At 'Start combat", you'll have to admit, that is were it is the most intense for the whole round..it seems there are 10 times more ribbons in the air than there really is..But from what I saw most of the ribbons are gone by the 2 minute time ..If the ribbons stayed on longer for the round,wouldn't it make the round at the end about the same as the begining intensity..

As for the carnage..I think that a good percentage of the crowd at a Nascar race go to it just to see the wrecks..The race without the 'Big one' is a bit boring..

More aggressive flying??..Yea,that's what I want!! To go after someone as hard as you can is what combat should be all about!!

Having a ribbon to go after, more often,thru out the round,I don't think that would be boring at all..

Also if it was the only way to really get a cut (prop cut), your skills as a pilot would soar..because you would have to learn new techniques just to have that cut..
draftman1
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Post by draftman1 »

there were alot of floating ribbons, those targets are gone. usually there have been less floaters and you always have a target of some kind through the whole round, not much of that in this contest
cosmo64
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Post by cosmo64 »

Like Andy said each contest is different...Exeter had lots of cuts/floaters early in the rounds...Others I have seen few cuts and many landing with a full streamer
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boiler
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Post by boiler »

In 2548 it is much harder to get cuts.
Papabear1
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Post by Papabear1 »

cosmo64 wrote: I still don't see the difference between sticky tape and a thin strip of sandpaper...I know that this has been disscussed into the ground and rules are rules...I stick with the tape
I actually think you would not have an advantage with sand paper. sand paper would need a sawing action to cut a streamer like the the streamer slipping down the LE. Tape and goo get cuts by not letting the streamer move and causing it to snap. I think you'd see just as many drapes with sand paper as with a clean LE. I could be wrong.

As for sticky, I too like the idea of more streamers in play longer into the round because they stick to the wing. It also causes you to improve your skills since a lopsided plane flies different. As far and I can see, double sided tape is no different than putting masking tape on and adding tangle foot. The tape portion is not what cuts the streamer its the sticky part that catches it.

Now, Prop cuts. They are much more difficult than you might think and I'd be willing to bet you'd see more no cut rounds than rounds with cuts. This would mean allot of guys getting the same scores every round (160). Yes. guys would get better and start to make those cuts, but you would also see allot of guys getting out of combat because the skill/learning curve is too high. One of my favorite thing to see is the ear to ear grin on a guys face when he gets that lucky cut. We both know it wasn't on purpose, but it's good enough to bring him back the next time. Plus, low scoring is why I don't watch soccer.LOL

(Edited by Lightning to correct new Forum formatting errors)
ptsullivan
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Post by ptsullivan »

I need all the help I can get, I like carpet tape. Keeping more streamer in play longer is a good thing. Sand paper may tear streamer better than a clean leading edge, but it then just falls and is not a target for future cuts. If anything we need
to encourage scoring. One time I was in a jam and I needed to get a plane in the air before start combat. My engine was running and I noticed that I had not taken the backer of my carpet tape. I then noticed a can of 3m77 in my tool box and quickly shot a heavy layer over the carpet tape (with backer still on.) It actually worked really well, it was a pita to clean up though. the stuff on the tape was no problem, but all the over spray plus the excess that ran down the wing made a mess. I eventually got it off with some careful use of "Goof-Off" and a rag. That was fun.
Cross Check

Post by Cross Check »

Hi Ed,
Thanks for getting this this topic back on track...[:)]

CMicheal,
Your thoughts of the WW2 Aces and the challenge of getting cuts and keeping our streamers pts seem to be the reason we fly Maac Scale Combat here in S.Ontario,Canada. (It is modified RCCA 2610)

'Sticky stuff' is not banned, yet, no-one uses it here? I think it is because we like an even performance level to let pilot skill to win the Match.
And we hate picking out grass clippings after landing.[:p]
It is hard enough to get refueled/re-streamer'd for the next Round for us mere Mortals [8D]

Some observations of mine, being a CD and entrant in many 'non-sticky' Matches here over the last 9yrs:
(From our average 5-6 plane Heats, with 40-46in wingspans)

-It IS much harder to get a cut. You must earn a cut.
-There are are many more 'almost' cuts, that do not count.
-The game is 1/2 getting cuts; 1/2 keeping streamer pts.
-most of the time there is 1 or 2 streamers left at End Combat.
-Most Mid-Airs occur with several planes attacking a last streamer.
(Other Mid-Airs seem to be 'crap luck' turn arounds)

We definatily have evolved into/like Pursuit flying.
(As opposed to diving into a Fur-Ball as soon as 'Start Combat' is called)

Typical scores here are +1200/1100/1000 for 1st/2nd/3rd. The rest of the 15 or so pilots get tapered pts from there. Allot of times, one extra cut could move you up 5/6 places)

We do keep scores, but ironicly, none of us seem to care about them.

We DO have allot of FUN everytime we get together.[:)]

We cannot figure out, Yet, how to score 'prop cuts' for 200pts...[:D]

Take care,
Have fun,
Dave'crosscheck'Fallowfield
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THend
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Post by THend »

A cut on a wing is typically less than 3 feet from the motor.

In all that sky, that is pretty dang close to a prop cut anyway.

I like it when someone is cleaning up suddenly finds themselves at the mercy of that mop, plus it keeps more streamer in the air for fun.
jpmorere
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Post by jpmorere »

Everybody has their own take on it. While high scores are fun, I think that the real fun is in the chase. I remember when Cash and I were flying 704 and a really good day of practice is when you got maybe three cuts - for the entire day. Cuts are a bunch more thrilling when they are so rare. Yes, I find the real fun is in the finesse - the chase. Without sticky there are MORE PLANES with streamers at the end of the round. The fun goes through the entire round, rather than having everybody trying to chase one or two streamers after the feeding frenzy in the first minute or two. I have witnessed a number of midairs in just that mode - a swarm of planes following the one remaining streamer. The pursuers tend to get together going for the one remaining target.

Just one opinion here. To make it clear, I would prefer no sticky. If you need a point of reference: watch a few 3696 rounds. Not a lot of cuts, but lots of pursuit flying after the available targets through the entire round. I do not find that boring. If you find that boring, then I am sorry.

J.P.
CMichael
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Post by CMichael »

So what do we do here? Can there be an unofficial poll to see what a vote would be like in regards to this?

A vote for sticky tape and fluids or a vote for no sticky tape and fluids


My vote...No sticky
THend
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Post by THend »

Might be time to move this to the official "rules forum".

Like I said, a cut with sticky is within 36 inches of the motor.

I can build a leading edge that has no sticky, has no added devices...but it will grab streamers and be totally legal.

The path this is heading is not a fun one. Pilots will merely learn to build a wing with a leading edge that can catch streamers.

Then the easy answer will be to allow sticky stuff.

Put it to rest guys, learn to play with the rule and get over it. Or, you will forever be in a nested loop trying to get out of it.

Sticky is here to stay.

That is one vote.
CMichael
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Post by CMichael »

If I was a major league baseball pitcher and threw a ball that was 36 inches from the plate..it would not be a strike
If I was a quarterback in the nfl and threw the ball to one of my receivers ,36 inches away from him,it would be an incompletion
If a soccer player kick the ball to the net off to the right 36 inches,it would not be a score
I could go on and on with that

1. Objective. To recreate the excitement of aerial combat in an enjoyable, safe competition that will be interesting
for spectators and challenging for the contestants

Breaking this down..The excitement of aerial combat will always be there either way..I just fell the excitement would last longer because streamers will last longer..

Safe competition..The rules on safety are great on this..

But what challenge is it in a sport were you can miss by any measure you want to say, and call it a score..??

There is posters on both sides of this ,that is why I think it is a good idea for a vote..

Just because it is a rule that allows it,doesnt mean that it shouldn't be looked at for a possible change..
ptsullivan
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Post by ptsullivan »

I never want to relive the frustration of seeing 25 feet of draped streamer run over the
leading edge of my plane and not catch or tear.

There are very practical benefits of sticky stuff. Someone tugging an extra streamer right after
a chaotic exchange between combatants makes counting the score much easier. Often when someone
gets a prop cut early in a busy round multiple pilots will honestly feel that they made the cut.
Often the judges get confused too. You see 7 planes in the same box and all of a sudden there is
a floater falling and everyone is trying to claim it. A wing cut that sticks does not have this
problem.
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