Combining 2548 and 2610 for awards trophies

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wayno
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Combining 2548 and 2610 for awards trophies

Post by wayno »

I would just like to say that combining 2610 and 2548 for national awards is really lame. First of all, combining a premier high performance class with what us 2610 pilots consider to be a" beginner class" is crap. The only thing these classes have in common is they both have propellers. We put a great deal of time and pride in our ships and don't show up with beat up tape jobs for our contests. The photos from the Nats are perfect example of this. You wonder why there is such a low turnout? I certainly wouldn't travel that far with a bunch of semi-scale planes when all you see with the rest of the classes is finely detailed and accurate models. You don't see Quarter 40, Control line, scale and on and on showing up with taped up foamies for a national contest. 2548 at best loosely resemble scale aircraft and can barely get out of each others way on a mildly breezy day. I realize that a lot of people don't have the funds, time, will or skill to build an accurate scale aircraft that has a good chance of being destroyed and for that person 2548 is their way in. That is fine, but don't lump them in with our fast and ACCURATELY scale aircraft. 2610 requires much more skill to get a cut on a another 100mph ship and we don't put our ships in a furball and hope for a cut. I started combat when the big 50 pilot meets were happening in Billings and part of the reason I went was to admire others hard work and viewing the ACCURATE scale models. The same applies with our 2610 contests we now hold in Idaho and Oregon. We still put in the time and everyone shows up with nice ships. All my competitors are seasoned builders and pilots and we work and fly hard for the recognition of being the national champion and having a trophy to prove it. I see the Aces guys haven't given into the one motor, one fuel, rpm limit, large and slow ships that 2548 offers. We also don't have emergency 5 round meets when we don't have enough points for the trophy like the Florida bunch just did. I am sure that the Open B and SSC pilots would like to have their own National Champ trophy for the mantel as well. I was told by my RCCA region rep that the decision was made last year to group 2548 and 2610 as well as Open B and SSC into 1 class each and award trophies through 3rd place. LAME AS HELL. I think there should be a !st place trophy for all 4 classes and a plaque or certificate for 2nd and 3rd. I expect this decision was based on cost so there is a less costly and more appropriate way to award our hard work and expense. I also think a decision like this should have been run by ALL MEMBERS as I was not aware of this until I received my 2nd place trophy last year when I won my class. Wayne Mayo RCCA 880
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Dane McGee
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Re: Combining 2548 and 2610 for awards trophies

Post by Dane McGee »

Sounds like you guys fly a bunch of scale and have fun doing it.

I would like to see more all scale events in our area and this year we are gonna work on that very thing.

It would be great to have some pics of ya'lls beautiful scale airplanes in the scale or de-brief section so we can all admire them. How about doing a build along with pics on the forum so beginners and vets alike can learn your time honored way to build accurate scale birds.

It would be awesome to get a de-brief of your contests too, and it would help promote scale on a national level by providing forum activity and enthusiasm for warbirds.




...
Dane "Mad Max" McGee
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Re: Combining 2548 and 2610 for awards trophies

Post by Bruce B »

I will agree with you that each class should have its own winners and awards. I am a middle of the pack pilot so i probably wont ever have to worry about it. I will also agree with Dane that we would like some pics and event reports. Show off them pretty scale birds!! Or maybe come fly with us sometime and show us. I am quite happy with my taped up semi scale birds,and cant imagine spending the time you do building something just to crash sooner or later(never later for me). Id rather fly than build!!.....oh, my slow semi scale planes fly just fine in the wind too.
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Re: Combining 2548 and 2610 for awards trophies

Post by Blue Note »

Hmm...from my observations and understanding of the rule differences of 2610 and 2948, it appears that 2948 is actually more restrictive regarding accurate scale representation than 2610. More often than not, I have seen the cartoon-scale ships rise to the top of the pack due to the +/- 10% variation allowance enjoyed by 2610. This allowance is not specified for 2948, which seems to be dominated by planes with greater wing area and lower wing loading, if all other things are equal. While I feel that there are some limitations by the way the rules are written for both classes that restrict the variety of planes that are competitive against each other, the choice of strict adherence to scale specifications is a matter of personal choice for the 2610 builders. The presence of tight, skillfully crafted composite or molded models versus well worn, ratty, loose tape, foam planes may simply be a matter of pride or emphasis on priorities, be it time, money, or skill. Helping one another is the best way to address all of these issues to achieve a higher level of combat in all regions. The bottom line is that participation is fun and there is no definitive value to being the "champ" in any class of RC combat other than bragging rights amongst your peers. If you and your group are having fun, stick with it and it will motivate others to join in. Peace.
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lightning
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Re: Combining 2548 and 2610 for awards trophies

Post by lightning »

Wayne, I agree with Chris. Scale fidelity is more closely ruled in 2548 than in 2610. INTERPRETATION of those rules into physical airplanes has resulted in all kinds of different construction, including yes, taped 'planes. I am guilty of that as my A17As/Nomads have taped wings, even though the fuses are rip-stop.
I guess I am one of those who prefers flying to building, so am more interested in getting them done vs. perfect scale models.
But once the 'planes are 100+ feet away, does this stuff REALLY matter!

Can I suggest your comments are doing a dis-service to the likes of Mike Fredricks and Chris Handegard who have done a lot of work to get 2548/2948 kits available for those of us who want to buy them. And your comments about a "beginner class" are not going to endear you to those who prefer not to get into the 2610 rockets!

Chris' latest 'plane (Spitfire) can be finished just as nicely as a 2610. I am building two of them and they will be finished with sign vinyl, ie NOT "tape specials".
As for 2610 in general, I got tired of the performance disparity between my planes and others who went flat out with high performance engines, tuning tweaks, mousse cans, 30% fuel etc. Plus of course the oddball large wingspan aircraft that really has an unfair advantage over the 41" wingspan Spitfires I was flying at the time.
The "playing field leveling" of a specified prop and rpm limit, along with a max 48" wingspan removed MOST of the equipment advantages and I feel that pilot skill became much more important in terms of competition. This was one of the prime drivers for 2548 as we were very aware that Scale Combat was dying - fast!
Just take a look a the number of pilots flying 2548/2948 vs those flying 2610 and I suggest there are plenty who feel the same way.

My Northrop A17As/Nomads were legal in both Scale classes. With a prop and perhaps muffler change I could fly the same plane in both. I prefer the slightly slower speed of 2548, but that's just me getting old I guess!

In addition, the similarities between 2548 and Limited B meant I could carry ONE set of props/plugs and limited variations of fuel. My 25FX engines were just fine for either class. It worked for me.

As for the trophies - when a class drops to 10 pilots or fewer in the entire US all year, do you REALLY think we should retain trophies for just that class?
It was unknown what the direction was going to be for the different scale classes so a decision was made that reflects how we flew 10 years ago.
Two categories - "Scale" and "Open".
Scale, as you have observed, includes 2610 and 2548/2948
Open now includes SSC, Limited B and Open B. I have not heard any complaints from those pilots.

So, without wishing to tangle with you, this is my perspective. Now let's just go and build some more airplanes and have fun cutting streamers in 2012!
Keith Jones
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wayno
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Re: Combining 2548 and 2610 for awards trophies

Post by wayno »

Keith, As far as having a good looking ship when it is a 100' away, I have a neighbor lady that looks good from far but far from good. As far as using different plugs, fuel and props goes, I use the same fuel, 9-4 props and KB1L plugs in my Mustangs, Tonys, ME109s and my Ta152s. Maybe you were making it harder on yourself. A little more speed and 10" of wingspan at a 100' and 100mph are far less important than pilot skill, good eyesight and preparation. I have given many ribbons to a slower plane by misjudging when to cut. I have made many more cuts with my 40" Hergett Mustang than my 48"Ta 152s. Just like in the real war, planes were different in size and speed and it was TACTICS and SKILL that made or broke you. And there is way more than a "slightly slower" speed difference in comparison of 2548 and 2610. My Jeff Weiss P51 B broke 100mph on radar at our last contest. And when has anyone ever heard of a A17/Nomad ace? I am sure that there would be far more 2610 pilots if they didn't have the easy out of building a plane in 2 days that "resembles" a WW2 fighter. I am sure these are easy to build and fly. Easy to build and fly don't appeal to me. The hard work to build a nice ship, the fact that they are hard to fly and the reward of my fine work, preparation and flying skill are what keeps me coming back year after year. Our group of pilots has held steady and if anything we get a new guy here and there as well. My group I fly with all show up with nice ships and have improved markedly over time. The last conversation we will ever have will be when are we switching to 2548. I expect most if not all 2548 pilots never heard or saw a Stein Tony in full song making turns like a pylon racer and since they don't know any better that is Ok for them. And your emphasis on REALLY expecting a trophy for our hard work is crap. Your comment on going back 10 years ago with just scale and open makes no sense either as there was no "foamy" class at that time. I don't see Quarter 40 and Q-500 being lumped together and until last year I got a trophy for winning 2610. How about you keep my 3rd place in overall scale and send me my 1st place for my 2610 effort. I fought long and hard for that. Wayne Mayo RCCA880
wayno
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Re: Combining 2548 and 2610 for awards trophies

Post by wayno »

Also, as far as the requests go for debriefs as well as photos of our ships, I will see to it that these issues are addressed as they are fine points to make. My computer skills could use some work and I took plenty of before and after photos which I will submit soon. I agree that Chris does build great looking ships. I am sure that Mike Fredericks will agree with me that the foamies are for the most part a far cry from the quality of past years. I flew against him in Billings and he won with a Wyvern, and mostly his flying skill and preparation. My issue with combining these classes is that they have very little in common. Being a national champ in anything is worthy and maybe Keith should consider that 2610 is more exclusive, difficult, costly and it takes someone that is truly committed to building and travel to win that class. We don't take the easier, slower, less costly way out here in the West. Limiting everything and making all the same size takes away from realism. I am sure a WW2 vet walking through our pits would be far more impressed than walking through a 2548 pit, and the performance and flying abilities needed to get a cut with "2610 rockets" along with the screaming engines are not equaled at the local flying field. I expect the seasoned builders and flyers at the Nats would feel the same way. Wayne Mayo RCCA 880
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Dane McGee
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Re: Combining 2548 and 2610 for awards trophies

Post by Dane McGee »

Wayno, how bout we take up a collection or do whatever we have to do to get you a first place trophy......I'd be OK with that, really.
If roles were reversed, I might be the one complaining.

Concerning the airframes: If I changed prop and install a moose can on my mustangs, I'm 2610 legal......and I guarantee I will turn inside anything, repeat anything flying.

Yes, plz have someone post pics and debriefs, Thx
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Re: Combining 2548 and 2610 for awards trophies

Post by cshepherd »

Back in the day, we used to give out these to the NPS Champs.

Image

I'm not sure what the RCCA has been giving out the past several years, but the cost on the above was roughly $45.
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Re: Combining 2548 and 2610 for awards trophies

Post by Pathous »

I have to agree with Wayne about the combination of classes for each points trophy. If I came out first in a class I fly but get edged out by someone who takes first in another class I would be very upset. I say we separate the trophies into each class. I really don't care if the class is small we all work hard to fly and score the best we can and not being recognized for it is a bit disrespectful. Should be cancel the nats because of the low turn out? I think not so lets not make any class less important because of low participation.
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Re: Combining 2548 and 2610 for awards trophies

Post by Yankee Samurai »

As the NorthWest District Rep, I can't remember voting on this issue to change to the overall trophy in either Scale or Open class. This change should have been voted upon, not just someones idea and run with it. And yes we do work hard at 2610 in this area, if fact we are the only ones left flying 2610 that are RCCA and a few from Montana that aren't RCCA. Since most of us are OLD pylon racers we still have the need for speed, but I have seen stock engines win over the mousse cans and ultrathrust equipped engines. As a matter of fact I have gone back to older Magnums to slow myself down. And yes believe it or not we still fly balsa wood aircraft. I know of at least three of use who use GP ARF's as backup and sometimes primaries when the fleet gets thin. Are they indestrucable, NO. Do they fly good YES. Most of the planes entered here are way to beautiful and I wonder why so much effort is put into these as eventually they sacraficed. A few have made fiberglass molds which helps expidite things. I know there about only ten of use still flying this class but it is far from DEAD like everyone thinks it is.

I used to post results on this site but if it wasn't the Dixie or Lone Star Nats it got few viewings and absolutely NO replys, so I quite posting. This year I'll make and effort to post some results and pic's. This will be my eleventh season of hosting two contest a year and the scale pilots have always fielded planes.

The issue of the trophies needs to be resolved, I'll never win one but I think that it is only fair that they be seperate again because they are far from being the same.
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Re: Combining 2548 and 2610 for awards trophies

Post by Team_Oz »

I am still fairly new to the group, and don't fly scale so I do not have any skin in this discussion. However, I do feel that it is time to address the issue. In my opinion the following addresses what is being discussed:

RC Combat Association National Points System Rules and Guidelines
Revised Jan 1, 2011

A. An event must follow RCCA or AMA rules fully and without modification(s) and be sanctioned by AMA to qualify for RCCA National Points. The following classes will be eligible for RCCA National Points:
- All AMA R/C Combat Classes (includes SSC, Open B and 2610)
- RCCA 2548/2948
- RCCA Limited B
and

4. Based on number 4, Championship prizes may be awarded in the following categories based on appropriate participation:
- RCCA National Scale 2610 Champion - (top 20 rounds in scale class 2610)
- RCCA National Scale 2548/2948 Champion – (top 20 rounds in scale class 2548/2948)
- RCCA National Scale Overall Champion - (combined top 20 rounds from any scale class)
- RCCA National Open 1/2A Champion - (top 20 rounds in open class 1/2A)*
- RCCA National Open A Champion - (top 20 rounds in open class A)*
- RCCA National Open B Champion - (top 20 rounds in open class B)
- RCCA National Open C Champion - (top 20 rounds in open class C)*
- RCCA National Limited B Champion – (top 20 rounds in open class Limited B)
- RCCA National SSC Champion – (top 20 rounds in open class SSC)
- RCCA National Open Overall Champion - (combined top 20 rounds from any open class)
* These events do not currently have enough participation to merit awards.


It appears to me that the only combination for scale is 2548 & 2948, not 2610 and 2548 - unless the association completed the following action from the Bylaws:

6.8.3 Policy Decisions - All policy decisions affecting the association appointments, policy, membership dues, publications, sanctioning, national budget, and any national championship events shall be ratified by a majority vote of the Board of Directors.


I would like to suggest that the B.o.D. make a determination on this issue ASAP, as the longer it festers the more chance it has of alienating some of the membership.

If I have missed something in our rules please point it out...

Bill
Really did you think I would go there.
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Re: Combining 2548 and 2610 for awards trophies

Post by Yankee Samurai »

Bill,
Good point!!!
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Re: Combining 2548 and 2610 for awards trophies

Post by lightning »

Yankee Samurai wrote:As the NorthWest District Rep, I can't remember voting on this issue to change to the overall trophy in either Scale or Open class. This change should have been voted upon, not just someones idea and run with it.
Randy, The proposed change received a majority Board vote in July 2010.
You were one of the non-voting Board members which I guess is why you don't remember it.
The change was for a two combined first place trophies for "Scale overall" and "Open overall".
I don't recall any discussion about eliminating the individual Class trophies. In which case, Wayne should have received his 2610 1st place
The history is on the Board Forum.
What we HAVE missed is the rewording of the NPS descriptions to align them with the changes.

But back to the subject at hand.
In 2010 Wayne DID receive an overall 2nd place trophy. It just happens that he placed first in 2610 AND second in Scale overall. I got an email from him thanking me for mailing out his trophy.

For 2011, he won 2610 after flying 40 rounds.
Unfortunately a couple of other pilots flying 2548 scored more points in fewer rounds to push him down to 3rd spot overall.

I suggest the Board needs to talk through this again!
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Re: Combining 2548 and 2610 for awards trophies

Post by Team_Oz »

lightning wrote: The history is on the Board Forum.
Where is this located? I do not seem to be able to locate it...

Thanks - Bill
Really did you think I would go there.
Bill1003
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