sandpaper

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sgilkey
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Re: sandpaper

Post by sgilkey »

i got an email that your post was made, Don, so it seems to be working....thanks
Scott Gilkey
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Re: sandpaper

Post by sgilkey »

We seem to be dead in the water on this. Per my previous posts, my recommendation is not to issue a waiver, as P&P only allow them for "Provisional" events.

As previously posted, therefore I vote that the Rules Committee issue an interpretation that says that "sandpaper, tread tape, and similar abrasive strips, in addition to two-sided or other sticky tapes, are allowed to be used on the wing leading edge."

I would also suggest we should state that we recognize this interpretation raises some concern about the reduction of "secondary" streamer targets, and therefore this interpretation will be re-evaluated at the end of a specified timeframe. MY RECOMMENDATION IS THAT THE TIMEFRAME BE THE ENTIRE 2012 COMBAT SEASON.

Since I'm somewhat conerned that my pre-Valentine's "Hugs and Kisses" sign-off may have grossed you guys out, I will merely sign off:

Respectfully Submitted,
Your Humble Servant,
PitBoy
Scott Gilkey
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Re: sandpaper

Post by mad »

All good Scott, Was away for a couple days. Man this is tough. I really don't have a problem with the sandpaper. but Its hard to get there from what is written. This is far different from the 2 sided tape. It is just covering with the sticky fluid pre applied, But then again it is not that far a leap.

Ok plain and simple. Sandpaper----as written I have to say My vote Is NO
Michael DeWoody
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Re: sandpaper

Post by sgilkey »

Michael, I understand your position. Looks like we need Keith to be tie breaker. KEITH, ALL THE PRESSURE IS ON YOU, BIG GUY
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Re: sandpaper

Post by lightning »

Michael, when a crease in my strapping tape produces more of a "projection" than a grain of sand I'm having trouble identifying that grain as a structure..
BUT there is no doubt that sandpaper is intended to increase the rate of cutting streamers, so does that make it a "device".
What I'm REALLY wrestling with is that we are grown men playing with toy airplanes and we are picking fly sh** from pepper here!

I have no issue with the use of sandpaper and whatever means it takes to make its' use clearly legitimate.

One of you is arguing it's interpretation, one is arguing it's a rule change.

I DON"T CARE and I'm not going to be the referee between the other two members of the Rules Committee!

But if a clarification issued by us saying that it's OK will put this trivial issue to rest, then let's do it!
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Re: sandpaper

Post by mad »

Keith, there is a reason the are an odd number of members on this committee, I am not arguing with Scott as a matter of fact I greatly admire Scott.
This forum was set up for exactly what we are using it for. Intelligent respectful discussion with what is best for the combat community as a whole. I take that responsibility very serious as I am sure Scott does as well.
Your opinions are wanted and needed as well You are far from a referee.

I have to interpret the rule as no to sandpaper Scott the other way. they are both opinions. yours will decide and there will be no hard feeling either way.
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Re: sandpaper

Post by lightning »

Michael,
I do not accept that sandpaper is a device or projection. It is a "material".
As such I do not believe a rules change is required, merely a clarification, much the same way as we clarified the use of 2-sided tape a couple of years ago.
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Re: sandpaper

Post by sgilkey »

I agree that this is a tough one, it is not clear either way, and no matter what we decide, there will be people who will call us idiots. My principal reason for leaning toward the "YAY" is that it will make combat easier and less messy and therefore may encourage participation, and I do not believe it will significantly alter scoring or fun. However i think we should monitor it and revisit it to make sure we have not made a mistake, and significantly altered the landscape, particularly as regards secondary targets. If we find ourselves with lots of reports of "no targets left after 2 or 3 minutes" then we should revisit the issue.

My previous suggestion is to publish the interpretation that says that "sandpaper, tread tape, and similar abrasive strips, in addition to two-sided or other sticky tapes, are allowed to be used on the wing leading edge."

I believe we should state that we recognize this interpretation raises some concern about the reduction of "secondary" streamer targets, and therefore this interpretation will be re-evaluated at the end the 2012 COMBAT SEASON.

Per the P&P I'm not sure who we send this to, I would guess we send it to the Board for publishing to the members??? Or maybe, since we just did this are the request of the Prez, then he publishes it to the members? That seems like the most straightforward way.
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Re: sandpaper

Post by boiler »

I posted it in the members only forum. See if I represented it properly or if you wish me to add or clarify anything. I also asked for CD's to report on a thread there during the season so you guys can see how it's working. I thank you for your concern for rc combat and the rcca. Without your hard work and dedication we would probably be in a fighting match between members for the entire year. Now maybe pilots can get back to building and flying.
Bob (Longhaul) Loescher
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Bring those planes in closer where I can see them.
[url=http://www.rccombat.net/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=11380][img]http://www.rccombat.net/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=11381[/img][/url]
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Re: sandpaper

Post by lightning »

6 months later I'm going to throw a wrench in the works.
On May 24th Chris Handegard posted in the MOF/Rules Discussion/Open Classes/Sandpaper leading edge.....
Chris Handsgard wrote:In all this carrying on about one thing or another like it's messy, it's not fair, it affects scoring, my clothes got stained, one rule says this, another says that, screw it it's already on my whole fleet whether you like it or not, NPS blah blah, let's just try it and see what happens, etc. etc. OMG. I don't recall much being said about the obvious PHYSICAL DANGER of allowing an abrasive like sandpaper on the leading edge of our glorified lawn darts that we deliberately try to bash into a state of little or no control PRETTY MUCH EVERY TIME WE FLY THEM AT EACH OTHER.

Before the RCCA, as a group and individually, opens itself up to a huge liability the first time someone gets a number done on his face by a 5 foot long 80+ MPH flying BELTSANDER, I am taking the position that strictly from a safety standpoint, what we do is already inherently risky enough. Allowing an abrasive cutting material, specifically sandpaper, to be used even in a "see how it goes test" may be a VERY BAD IDEA.

All the handyman types out there probably know from painfull first hand experience just how quickly MOVING SANDPAPER removes flesh-- like butter on a hot knife. Sandpaper is designed to cut things. Things like wood, metal, ceramic, plastic, etc. If you think it's as harmless as say sticky goop or tape, take that sandpapered leading edge and stroke it briskly across the back of your neck one time. Now imagine it nailing you from an out of control dive at XXX MPH. Still think it's a good idea?
Having now seen how my wing tape jobs got ripped apart at the NATS after collision with planes using sandpaper I have to reconsider my position.
There was a LOT more damage to repair than simply cleaning off the sticky stuff.
I think use of sandpaper is opening a huge liability can of worms.
The comparison to a belt-sander is a good one. I for one would not like to see the result of a sandpapered wing sliding across someone's bare arm, leg, neck or (God forbid) face.

I think we should call a halt to this trial RIGHT NOW on the grounds that is is increasing the potential of personal injury to combat pilots. This is a point that I did not consider as part of the Rule discussion, but in hindsight, with this perspective, I would have voted an emphatic "NO".
Saddens me to take this position as I HATE sticky stuff, but that junk does not involve a safety issue.

We cannot avoid the use of propellers, they are a necessary part of the airplane - sandpaper is not and 60" of sandpapered wing could easily do a lot more damage than a prop.

So to repeat, based on Chris Handegard's wake-up call and my observations of what damage sandpaper can do, my position is STOP the use of sandpaper NOW and issue a clarification as to why it should not be within the Rules. We do not need to wait for the end of 2012 to do this, doing so is a BAD idea IMHO.
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Re: sandpaper

Post by mad »

Did you happen to take any pictures of the planes.

I have not seen anything that would change my mind on the subject, I am still a no.

I am not sure We can stop the trial unless Scott would make it unamimious

Even then people were told this would go for the rest of the year. It probable would cause a big stink
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Re: sandpaper

Post by lightning »

Michael, I hear you on the issues associated with not letting it run for the balance of 2012.
BUT, what happens then if the majority vote is "YES" at the end of the year?
Having now experienced first hand the damage sandpaper can do to airplanes I do not want to see someone hit with it.
It shredded my wing tape, INCLUDING Bi-Di! I can only begin to imagine if it had been skin!
I'm suggesting the safety aspect transcends the "It's cleaner" and OTOH "Streamers fall off more" comments.
I WAS leaning towards being a supporting CD because I hate Tanglefoot with a passion, but in all conscience I cannot stand by and let this go through.
Are we (the Rules Committee) prepared to accept the potential liability if someone got badly hurt? We collectively approved it!
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Re: sandpaper

Post by mad »

Keith, I would not be against stopping this trial. My point that sandpaper was a structure and it CUTS ribbons is still the same. The original reason for the structure ban was for safety. If sandpaper can shred a bi-di wing it is probably not a safe structure to have on a leading edge.

How do we proceed. any opinions Scott
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Re: sandpaper

Post by lightning »

Michael, I'm not going to re-open the structure/device/material/substance debate again. That is moot.
The sandpaper being used by pilots RIGHT NOW is dangerous stuff if someone got hit.
The damage to two of my wings at the NATS was repaired with new tape. No structural damage was received.
Last time I looked, skin and flesh does not come on a roll!
Use of sandpaper/tread tape or whatever it's called needs to be discontinued, a clarification issued to that effect and a rule change submitted that spells it out.
IMHO we need to do this ASAP.
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Re: sandpaper

Post by sgilkey »

I don't see how sandpaper on a wing is any more dangerous than a spinning prop, or a 10+ ounce hunk of metal (engine), running or not, travelling at your face at 80+mph. Personally, although it would hurt, I'd rather be slapped in the face with a sandpaper LE, than a prop spinning at even 14.5k, or an unrunning 25fx that someone has thrown at my face. Even if that 25FX is thrown by a sissy!!!

I realize a wing LE is bigger than a prop arc, but being generally unfamiliar with instances of people being hit and seriously harmed by combat plane parts of any nature, I am (thankfully) comforted that the probability of being hit by any of these items appears to be fairly small, given the rate of occurrence over many years of combat. Therefore I do not feel that there is a serious, and imminent, safety threat.

However, although i have not seen it firsthand at the one meet I attended so far this year, nor have I seen any photos, I accept Keith's description of the added level of damage, in consideration of his years of combat experience and many shredded planes. He's a NO, and Michael is already a NO, so even if I continued to support sandpaper, I would be outvoted.

Given the consternation that was created when we agreed to this trial, and the fact that it seemed to be a 50.1% FOR/49.9% OPPOSED kind of situation from the start, I will agree with my other two esteemed and experienced colleagues and say that the experiment with sandpaper indicates that we are probably better off to agree that it should not be allowed.

I still thnk the rules are ambiguous enough to interpret that it IS allowed, therefore the prez should issue a statement that it's been determined that sandpaper should not be allowed, to avoid a safety concern. Then someone should draft a rules change proposal with a statement that specifically mentions sandpaper as being disallowed, so the rules are clear.

What to do about the rest of the season? I agree that IF there was any advantage to sandpaper, then those who have used it, and used it at Nats, have had a leg up for NPS over those who may yet fly the bulk of their 2012 rounds. However, I think this is an unlikely, and minor, consideration, and if we are going to ban sandpaper to avoid a safety concern, then we should make the ban effective immediately.

Thus spake Pit Boy Gilkey.
Scott Gilkey
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